lborgia88
Gatchamaniac
I am a Condor.
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Great recap, TJ!
| quote: | Originally posted by Transmute Jun
IMHO, Red Impulse is really out of line here. I understand that he wants to prevent Ken from getting on the missile, but he really doesn’t need to do this in the way that it’s presented here. Everyone knows how I feel about Red Impulse, and this is one of the scenes that fuels my dislike for the man. ‘Nuff said.
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It just occured to me that in Gatch II, episode 13, something very similar happens. If I recall, the plot involves a device that has to be planted deep inside some magma to prevent a massive volcanic disaster of some kind (caused by Galactor, of course) and it's a suicide mission for whoever carries it out. Ken's going to do it, until Joe punches him in the stomach and then heads off to do it himself.
The scene is here, in fact, at 6.50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuqfXLqsK...rom=PL&index=73
So now I'm trying to figure out why I'm okay with this Gatch II this scene and not with the spin-and-throw scene between Ken and Red Impulse...
Granted, my shameless bias in Joe's favour is a big factor!
But maybe it's because Ken hasn't just, in that moment, learned that Joe is someone he's been desperate his whole life to know and form a father-son bond with, so Joe's abrupt and preemptory punch and departure, seem less harsh.
I think a big factor, though, is that it's Joe, another member of the Team, who's doing this to Ken in Gatch II -a deeply established character with a very long history with Ken and not someone who (up until that moment) has been basically deceiving him while masquerading as a mysterious stranger. And, it's a hell of a lot more dignified for Ken, to me at least, to just be punched in the stomach than to be picked up, spun around, and hurled.
This post has been edited 3 time(s), it was last edited by lborgia88 on 02-11-2009 at 20:51.
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02-11-2009 20:50
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tatsunokofan
Gatch Guru
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Hi all!
| quote: | | I wish I spoke Japanese so that I could understand the original voice actors. I'm sure there are some nuances that are lost in translation. Still, I do like the voice of Leraldo Anzaldua. He lends a forthright, yet vulnerable, character to Ken, which I had always imagined in my mind. |
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While I'll admit that Leraldo improved as the series progressed and he became more used to the role, I always found his performances lacking. It reminded me too much of something that came straight from the "Voice Acting 4 Kartoonz" handbook. Leraldo could act in the role, but Katsuji Mori could bring Ken to life!
The farewell scene with Red Impulse is a prime example. Leraldo did fine with it, I guess, but Katsuji Mori gave it an emotional resonance that blows Leraldo out of the water. You don't need to understand the words that Ken was saying to understand the emotion behind them. It's a much richer performance, and you're only depriving yourself if you don't give Mr. Mori's rendition a chance.
| quote: | | Oh really? So you're reading my stories? |
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You know my feelings regarding fanfic, so no, I have not read them, nor do I intend to. It's just impossible to not notice phone book-sized stacks of paper in Bird Scramble.
James
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02-11-2009 22:13
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Transmute Jun
Queen of the Bird Missiles
I am a Swan.
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| quote: | Originally posted by lborgia88
And, it's a hell of a lot more dignified for Ken, to me at least, to just be punched in the stomach than to be picked up, spun around, and hurled. |
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For me, that's a big part of it. Plus, Ken gives as good as he takes. Sure Joe punches him in that one scene, but Ken punches Joe in others. You don't get the feeling that Joe is *always* beating up on Ken, and that this is only the most humiliating thrashing in a long line of thrashings. I feel this with RI.
But to some extent, you're right. Joe shouldn't be punching Ken in the gut just to get his own way, and that scene bothers me as well. Just not as much as the RI one, which I see as being overly-gratuitous.
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This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Transmute Jun on 03-11-2009 at 13:50.
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03-11-2009 01:59
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gatchamarie
Gatchamaniac
I am an Eagle.
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| quote: | Originally posted by Transmute Jun
But the real answer is... Katse was looking for a way to get out of there and wasn't paying too much to Gatchaman's rantings. After all, usually he's not saying much that Katse would be interested in. 
ETA I can see it now... all Ken has to do is say, 'The White Shadow steals close...' and Katse starts to fall asleep!  |
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I think that's the most plausable explanation!!!!!
***
I cannot tell you how much I enjoyed myself reading this thread first thing in the morning today! There's a lot of space here where one can give a different opinion from the other, where neither one nor the other is totally right or wrong!
Taking RI's subject for an example, as I always say, I don't totally agree with his actions but everything depends on the situation sometimes and I admit there was so little time for RI to reestablish a bond which he escaped from for so many years taking into consideration the fact that he was going to sacrifice himself at the spur of the moment! Yes, Ken being spinned around is a little humiliating and maybe a punch in his stomach would have seemed better (even if all violence is wrong!) but can anyone know exactly how one can react in a life or death situation when it comes to sacrifice oneself instead of a beloved one?! And here we're talking about men who fought all their lives! If we come to that, even in Episode 47 of Gatch F, if it were not for Jinpei's logic to tackle the situation, Ken and Joe agreed to fight with all their strength with each other in order to see who would use the Hypershoot and destroy Sosai Z. Apart from the harsh phrases spoken between them to threat each other, the loud spoken thoughts that ran through their minds were full of respect for each other and desire to not leave a mate endanger his life instead of their own. Moreover, this thing of knocking a mate or relative to the ground, unconscious or not, in order to take his place in a precarious situation is shown in many other series and films, being Japanese or not. It's just the way it's done that can make a difference!
As to the voice actor's role, it is so important how an emotion is delivered just by the way it's heard and not only by the character's body pose and facial expression. I sadly say that Ken's Italian voice actor with whom I've grown up did not give him justice in my opinion. He always talked in a dreamy tone and, even in the most hurried and active scenes he didn't deliver the right message of angst! He only excelled in calling out names when grieving for someone's loss or endangered position, thus, in this case, the way he would have called out "father" after RI would have been great! (unfortunately I don't recall this episode in the Italian language as I saw it a long time ago!)
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03-11-2009 07:05
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lborgia88
Gatchamaniac
I am a Condor.
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| quote: | Originally posted by Transmute Jun
| quote: | Originally posted by lborgia88
And, it's a hell of a lot more dignified for Ken, to me at least, to just be punched in the stomach than to be picked up, spun around, and hurled. |
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For me, that's a big part of it. Plus, Ken gives as good as he takes. Sure Joe punches him in that one scene, but Joe punches Ken in others. You don't get the feeling that Joe is *always* beating up on Ken, and that this is only the most humiliating thrashing in a long line of thrashings. I feel this with RI.
But to some extent, you're right. Joe shouldn't be punching Ken in the gut just to get his own way, and that scene bothers me as well. Just not as much as the RI one, which I see as being overly-gratuitous. |
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I agree, the nature of the relationship between the two people involved does seem to make a lot of difference. In the Eagle Riders version that you recapped here, Harley picking up and throwing Hunter seems different when its been established that they've always known each other as father and son (and Harley manages to get an "I love you" in there too -that doesn't hurt!)
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03-11-2009 11:36
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amethyst
Wanted: $1000 Reward
I am a Condor.
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Marie, I think you are so right with this:
| quote: | | As to the voice actor's role, it is so important how an emotion is delivered just by the way it's heard and not only by the character's body pose and facial expression. |
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And I think that you have nailed what many of us are saying.
James, you are right that we don't need to understand a language to understand the nuances of emotion, but we do need an understanding of it. Having studied Spanish and French, and living in a bi-cultural area, it is easier for me to pick up on those nuances in Latin-based languages. Sadly, I've not watched enough subbed anime (just Gatchaman and a some Sailor Moon) to pick up on all of the nuances. What I know of Japanese, other than a few phrases picked up from Gatchaman or others that have become common in English, is that it is like many other Oriental languages and is largely tonal and inflectional, which makes it more difficult for an untrained ear to pick up language inflections or emotional inflections.
I've found it is easier for me to pick up on the emotions from Joe's voice actor, Isao Sasaki, but I don't know if that is his deeper voice or that Joe's emotions are usually quite clear. I use that as my baseline. Hopefully, I'll be able to pick up what you hear in the other actors as I become more familiar with the subbed version and am able to focus on listening instead of reading the subs.
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03-11-2009 15:02
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tatsunokofan
Gatch Guru
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Hi all!
| quote: | | James, you are right that we don't need to understand a language to understand the nuances of emotion, but we do need an understanding of it. Having studied Spanish and French, and living in a bi-cultural area, it is easier for me to pick up on those nuances in Latin-based languages. Sadly, I've not watched enough subbed anime (just Gatchaman and a some Sailor Moon) to pick up on all of the nuances. What I know of Japanese, other than a few phrases picked up from Gatchaman or others that have become common in English, is that it is like many other Oriental languages and is largely tonal and inflectional, which makes it more difficult for an untrained ear to pick up language inflections or emotional inflections. |
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I have to disagree with you here, simply from my own experiences and those of others from the early days of Gatchaman and anime fandom. In those days (The late 1970s and early 1980s), none of us knew more than a few common words of Japanese (Arigato and Sayonara were pretty much it). Without any foundation in the language, we all learned pretty quick that you could pick up a lot of the basic meaning of the dialogue from the way things were being said. So, to me, using the excuse that you can't follow things because it's not a Latin-based language is just that -- an excuse.
I should add that the shows we were watching at that point were, for the most part, not subtitled, so we didn't even have that as a guide! With the ADV Gatchaman discs, you have that benefit, so the excuse that you need a common language base in order to follow things becomes even weaker.
James
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03-11-2009 15:38
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condorcandi
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I agree that the emotion in the voice says a LOT. The emotions also need to fit what the character is doing. In "The Duplicate President", at the end when the radio station is blowing up, the emotion G-2 is showing in his body language is a lot stronger than what Dirk has in his voice.
The absence of emotions works well at times. In the GoS The Reverser Ray (#76 The Bracelet Is Exposed), G-2 has to report the Galactor ambush and the reverser ray. After Brighthead's (sarcastic) greeting, Dirk explains what happened. The absolute neutrality of his voice forces attention to WHAT he's saying. And Brighthead almost hits the ceiling. 
When I saw that ep I could SWEAR RI was crying during the Eagle toss scene, before he lowers his visor again. I'll try to remember to check when I get to that ep.
When Red Impulse tossed Ace across the room, I thought it was because he felt that if he gave Ace half a chance, G-1 would knock Red Impulse aside and pilot the missile himself. Ace can be just as angsty as Ken when it comes to the 'this is my fault' business. Whether 'it' is or not. 
BTW, I am of the opinion that someone can be an untter and complete jackass, and still be loyal to whatever cause or whatever they're working. Even in "Evolution" by TJ, Cronus is loyal to the Federation -even though he's also a murderous little scumball. But some of RI's actions could be read as his actual loyalties lying elsewhere -which TJ's "Ties That Bind" series exploits to great effect. 
Piloting that missile was the end of the mission that RI accepted 14 years before. It wasn't the only possible end, but it was the end that happened. That sense of finishing the mission, as well as allowing his son the chance to live his life and lead his team, might have something to do with RI being so determined to be the missile's pilot.
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This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by condorcandi on 10-06-2010 at 10:19.
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10-06-2010 10:16
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