How do you decide which of your fanfics are successful? Read count, comments, the way you feel when you get it completed, the way it felt when you wrote it? Or maybe "success" has no bearing on how and what you write? I think that the part I like best about fanfic writing is when I'm collaborating with another writer either as a beta reader or when they are beta-reading for me and we see each other's worlds together. That's a really heady feeling - especially when you see OCs or other worlds come to life. In looking over the stories I've written, I'd say that the only stories that I'm not happy about or proud of are the ones that no one else seems to like and that I find cringe-worthy as well, for whatever reason. But once I've posted something, I tend to leave it alone. Hopefully, I'll get to the point where I can see those stories as a measure of my personal growth as a writer. I'm still too much of a perfectionist to see things that way yet - I tend to see them as story failures rather than milestones. How do you measure success (or not)?

To me, success if in how *I* feel. Yes, it's nice if other people like your fics, but what's important to me is that I enjoy what I write. I've gone back to fics of mine that are years old and started reading them and really enjoyed them. I guess that makes sense, because when I write, I write what *I* would want to read. So to me, a fic is successful if I personally like the end result. Sometimes I'll experiment a little and go out on a limb. In those situations it can be more difficult to gauge success, so I'll often rely on a beta-reader's comments to tell me what works and what doesn't. I can't judge by reviews... my read-to-review ratio is probably one of the worst! But you know, that stuff is just an ego stroke. I'm not writing for these other people. If they like it, great, but if not, no skin off my nose as long as I am proud of what I've done. The fics of mine that I'm not thrilled with are ones that I wrote to meet certain criteria, and it was like pulling teeth to get the words out. I've got a couple, and they're up and around, but they're still my work, so I leave them up there. So... I guess what I'm trying to say is, I *know* if what I've written is a 'success'. I don't need anyone else to tell me. Gosh, now I'm sounding arrogant. Um, I think I'll just go sit over here...

As long as I like my fic, and enjoy reading it, I'm happy. But...nothing beats getting a good review, especially from writers you respect, or getting,comments on Gatchamania, and seeing that your readers are following the story, and caring about your characters. So...keep those reviews coming! It's not what makes my fics a success, but, it makes everything so much better!

Aw, TJ, I don't think you sound arrogant. I think you sound confident. I think I am a better judge of pieces that I am writing now. Pieces that have their origins in childhood stories I wrote in my head, now those are much harder for me to judge and I feel much more exposed with those sitting out there, especially if no one else seems to like them. I've found the same is true with my poetry - pieces that I'm deeply emotionally invested in, I have no idea if they are any good and I have to rely on others opinions. Now, I might still feel satisfied and proud that I wrote it, but I'll openly admit that I have no idea of its quality. The less emotionally invested I am, the better judge I am of the piece, but it may not been as personally cathartic or meaningful to me. So, yes, success is relative!

But what is 'quality'? We can all say that something has proper spelling or is grammatically correct, but that says nothing as to the 'quality' of a written piece, and this goes triple for poetry! Quality in written work is an OPINION and nothing more. As long as YOUR opinion says you are happy with your work, that should be all that matters.

I do like the feeling of completing a longer piece (something I haven't done in a while), and completing a detailed short story. I tend to not use reviews too much as a guide. Most of them come across as a popularity contest. Reviews I do look at are the ones that see something that I may have missed while writing, and if I'm posting a longer piece in chapters it inspires me to to write more and sometimes inspires minor changes. For short stories, sometimes they'll inspire a sequel. My best guide for how successful a story has been is read count. If I'm happy with the story I put out, and other people are reading it, then that makes me very happy. If others aren't reading it, I'll go back and reread, and if I'm not happy either, I'll revise. I need to be careful with my own stuff, as if I don't let it sit, I have a tendency to read what my brain wanted to write, and not necessarily what my fingers typed (amazing how those can be two different things).

This is one of those topics that seems to demand a concrete answer where there is none. While it's true that we each define success based on our opinions, our opinions are based on some measure of quality -- while we can't put precise measurements on "quality", we still use it. Otherwise, we'd never work to improve. When it comes to how I define "success" ... well, that depends. A silly bit of fluff I've jotted down can be successful if others like it. Other pieces are successful in other ways, and sometimes are successful in more than one way. For example: back in 2001 I found a journal that had some poems I'd written when I was 12. There was one poem that, at the time I wrote it, seemed to be a grand opus. However, when I reread it in '01, I realized that 7/8ths of it was stereotypically bad, teenager poetry ("No matter what bad things happen, I'll be happy as long as my true love is at my side, kissing me and cuddling me forever and ever..." , except sappier.) But the first stanza was good. So this was successful because I was writing mostly crap at the time, and not total crap. Then the poem was successful a second time because, when I submitted only the first stanza, it was accepted immediately. This is what came from my 12-year-old mind: August The haze was so thick It made the sun into a melon-colored moon The old air conditioner I'd duct-taped into the window Wheezed and moaned as it strained to work. *first appeared in the Summer 2001 edition of Virginia Advesaria. Copyright 2001, Empire Publishing. I don't think I'd consider it successful if I'd written it today, since I've done so much more reading and writing over the years, and that has changed my standards. Plus, I don't have the same goals when I write as I did when I was younger. I don't know if that really gives you a good idea of how I define success in my writing. But I hope you can see that it's nothing cut-and-dried, as far as I'm concerned.

I regard anything a sucess is something I finish. I never seem to get much feedback, my ideas are too OTT And some of the pieces I am most pleased with never get feedback.

Originally posted by ElectricWhite For example: back in 2001 I found a journal that had some poems I'd written when I was 12. There was one poem that, at the time I wrote it, seemed to be a grand opus. However, when I reread it in '01, I realized that 7/8ths of it was stereotypically bad, teenager poetry ("No matter what bad things happen, I'll be happy as long as my true love is at my side, kissing me and cuddling me forever and ever..." , except sappier.) But the first stanza was good. So this was successful because I was writing mostly crap at the time, and not total crap. Then the poem was successful a second time because, when I submitted only the first stanza, it was accepted immediately.

EW, you just touched on almost completely different topic but still similar: Does the definition of success change through different developmental levels. Am example of this might be if we look at Taylor Swift. She has won a lot of awards, she's a talented artist, but is she a great singer-songwriter. IMHO, not yet. She has a lot of potential, but her songs have not yet matured. If she holds her course, and her music develops as she gains life experience, then she could become a great singer song writer.

Everytime I try to answer this question, I get kicked out of the internet. Is it trying to tell me something? Maybe this third time will be the charm. I write for my own enjoyment and stress relief. It's a lot cheaper than a therapist. I don't always post what I write, but I do enjoy sharing what I do post. I guess, for me, success is the read count. I like reviews and appreciate them, but few readers give reviews. Reading doesn't mean the reader likes what you wrote, but there must be something good there if there is a large read count.

Definitely a complex question. Like others, I have more than one measure of success. If I'm happy with the piece and finished it, both of those feel like success. Especially if it's a longer piece (and I do tend to write long). There's a definite satisfaction in being able to say it's done. I'd be lying if I claimed that good reviews didn't feel like success. However, I try to be discerning, as far as what the person actually says in the review. I love reviews that are specific and tell me what they liked (or don't like) and/or responded to about the piece/characters/etc. Or when people comment to me outside of reviews. I've tried to be better about leaving reviews as well. With longer fics, they feel successful if I see that people are reading the whole thing. That's a time investment, and time is precious, so it's great to see that people felt like spending some decent time in my twisted little world. One day external validation might not mean so much to me. For the moment, though, I enjoy it. I write for myself but also to share with other people. It's nice to know they enjoy it too.

Success, for me, is when my writing generates discussions, or has someone saying, "I never thought about it that way before," or sparks an idea for someone else's writing. A lot of times, I write the story that's in my mind because I want to write it. How successful I am depends on how happy I am with the finished product, whether anyone else ever reads it or not. Like EW, I, too, have those journals filled with poetry from years gone by, which could only be called typical teen angst writing. Successful? No. Special, yes, but only to me and that's enough. They aren't anything that I would particularly want to share with the world now. As everyone mentioned above, reviews are just opinions, but it is always nice to see that people are enjoying pieces that may have taken anywhere from weeks to months (or more) to write. And I seriously don't think anyone would turn down a compliment! But the bottom line is ... if you're happy with what you've written, if you feel like it says what you wanted to it say, and expresses the emotions you wanted to convey, then ... it's a success!

We seem to have pretty much a consensus here. I also rate my writing as a success if I can look at the finished piece and say "yeah - did good work on that". Even more so if I can look back on it 12 months later and think the same thing. The same goes (with me) for both fiction and non-fiction. In fact, some of my embroidery articles, I have completely re-written as I felt that they did not flow and I could think of better ways to get the ideas across. Like TJ - I find the hardest and worse pieces I've written are ones to meet certain criteria that I struggled to find words to write. Funnily enough, some of those that I dislike, others love. If I was to look at positive comments as a measure of success, then my most successful fic seems to be a Harry Potter fic called "And Now There's You" which amongst the Remus/Sirius fans has become a favorite - and yet I consider it good, but far from my best work. Often popularity of their work confuses authors - I've read a few interviews with successful authors who are rather astonished about what writing of theirs becomes "bestsellers" because they don't consider it their best work. Like Lee, however, I do love it when my POV on something causes people to say "I hadn't thought of that, but now you've made me look at it differently". Whether you write fiction or non fiction, to make your readers think, to take them out of their pre-conceived ideas is a powerful gift, and we should all be proud if we can do that.

Originally posted by Madilayn Like Lee, however, I do love it when my POV on something causes people to say "I hadn't thought of that, but now you've made me look at it differently". Whether you write fiction or non fiction, to make your readers think, to take them out of their pre-conceived ideas is a powerful gift, and we should all be proud if we can do that.

Yes! Really reaching someone or making them think is often the best reward.

For me, I think my overall satisfaction (or lack thereof) with a fic I've written comes down primarily, I think to what extent I feel the plot succeeded. I think we all, on some very instinctive level, understand what a "story" is. It's more than "this happened, and then this happened, etc., etc. The end," otherwise just writing down what you did on any given day would be a story, and that's just not the case. One writer even theorized there are only 7 basic archetypal plots (Overcoming the Monster, Rags to Riches, The Quest, Voyage and Return, Comedy, Tragedy and Rebirth) and I'm inclined to think that he was at least on to something there. Something I pondered in my dissertation was the all-too-human desire to want to take historical events -the "this happened, and then this happened etc., etc."- and shape it into a "story" such that it has characters, a theme (ie. heroic progress, or overcoming tyranny, ) builds to a climax, and has a meaningful resolution. Has objectivity -and accuracy- been lost? Yes. But has the "history" become something that a whole lot more people, even an entire nation, are going to read and remember for generations because it now strikes some inner chord and resonates? Hell, yes. Obviously, fanfiction isn't operating quite on that scale! But, nevertheless, I can't get enthusiastic enough to write something unless I think I've got a "story" to tell that will, hopefully, have a coherent theme that takes the reader on a little, beginning-middle-end, emotionally-recognizable journey towards a conclusion that feels in some small way, meaningful. And, to what extent I feel a fic I've written is "successful," hinges a lot on that. The other main thing for me, and the one I wish I would/could devote more time to, is the language used to express the story. It's too easy to "tell" instead of "show," unfortunately, and it takes time and effort to come up with the best words and phrases to fill a reader's head with a richer and more nuanced vision of what you're trying to convey. Rarely to do feel I have been too successful on this count! But, it remains the goal in sight...

Deep, thoughtful stuff, lborgia!

That's an interesting point about 'tell versus show'. I've tried that a few times, and it's always an interesting result. But it's not something I generally keep in mind when writing.

Sometimes it's hard to show instead of tell, especially if you're trying to figure out how to do an info dump without it being an info dump.

Love the discussion on this thread! Thanks for contributing, everyone. I have to say, my definition of "success" is certainly evolving. Getting my first fanfic to paper - getting my second fanfic polished and beta-read and posted - finishing a very difficult challenge piece - finally writing a battle scene that felt gritty enough to be a battle (haven't posted that one yet) - those were all huge milestones for me. Maybe what I was really grasping for when I started this thread is that I'm close to having written all of the backlogged material that was once stuck in my head and I'm wondering what to tackle next ...

Oh trust me, if you want inspiration, you'll find it here. Just ask and the plot bunnies will come a-swarming...

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Originally posted by Transmute Jun Oh trust me, if you want inspiration, you'll find it here. Just ask and the plot bunnies will come a-swarming...

Plot bunnies? I didn't know bunnies swarmed... I usually get mosquitoes, and if I don't get to them quickly enough, they throw rocks or they pull out really big mallets!

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Actually, speaking of plot bunnies swarming, my son and I started a fanfic together today. I'm not sure how our collaboration is going to go in the long run - he's 10 and gave me the hairy eyeball when I mentioned beta readers (What? What if they destroy the story?) - but so far, I like what we have in the first chapter. His aliens are far more alien than mine would be. I'm letting him lead on the alien part of the plot and I get the team. So far, so good.

Originally posted by jublke You know, LB, that is a beautiful quote and I'm going to try to remember it, but I've got to be honest here - I think I'm still working up to that point. I'm still learning how to scrape away the early paragraphs so that the story starts with action and I am still struggling to use active tense versus passive. Showing versus telling is on my radar - and that's a powerful example, Chris - but I'm still on the learning curve.

I think the day any of us thinks we're off the learning curve is the day we're heading toward a humbling experience.

Originally posted by jublke Actually, speaking of plot bunnies swarming, my son and I started a fanfic together today. I'm not sure how our collaboration is going to go in the long run - he's 10 and gave me the hairy eyeball when I mentioned beta readers (What? What if they destroy the story?) - but so far, I like what we have in the first chapter. His aliens are far more alien than mine would be. I'm letting him lead on the alien part of the plot and I get the team. So far, so good.

That sounds like fun! Look forward to seeing it. And it'll be good for him to see that the relationship between a writer and their beta/editor is supposed to be a partnership, where they're trying to help you make the story better, and you choose which of their comments/suggestions work for the story and which don't.

Originally posted by jublke Actually, speaking of plot bunnies swarming, my son and I started a fanfic together today. I'm not sure how our collaboration is going to go in the long run - he's 10 and gave me the hairy eyeball when I mentioned beta readers (What? What if they destroy the story?) - but so far, I like what we have in the first chapter. His aliens are far more alien than mine would be. I'm letting him lead on the alien part of the plot and I get the team. So far, so good.

Sounds fun. My kids were never interested in doing a collaboration. I've got two that will write on their own, but that's it. I'd be happy to beta read for you if you want.

Ame - You're welcome to chapter 1 if you want. We're still ironing out the plot. Oh, forget that. I went ahead and sent you chapter 1. I'm curious as to what you think.

OK, my son and I have the first chapter of our story up on Gatchfanfic: http://www.gatchfanfic.com/viewstory.php?sid=1383 Thanks for the beta, Ame!

Originally posted by ElectricWhite Plot bunnies? I didn't know bunnies swarmed...

They do when you're around!

Originally posted by Transmute Jun

Originally posted by ElectricWhite Plot bunnies? I didn't know bunnies swarmed...

They do when you're around!

Huh. I guess you'll have to explain it to me, TJ! I knew they're fuzzy, look cute, hopped around and multiplied....

Originally posted by ElectricWhite Huh. I guess you'll have to explain it to me, TJ! I knew they're fuzzy, look cute, hopped around and multiplied....

Funny, you were the one telling me about the 'special hug'.

Originally posted by jublke You know, LB, that is a beautiful quote and I'm going to try to remember it, but I've got to be honest here - I think I'm still working up to that point.

I know that I'm still working up to that! Though I'm sure it does come with practice and time. I wish I had more time...

Originally posted by Transmute Jun

Originally posted by ElectricWhite Huh. I guess you'll have to explain it to me, TJ! I knew they're fuzzy, look cute, hopped around and multiplied....

Funny, you were the one telling me about the 'special hug'.

Oh! So you're saying that, when bunnies swarm, it's like whenever a bird gets stung by a bee!