Ok, I couldn't find the question of the day thread, so I'd thought I'd post this here... Cep if it's wrong please feel free to move it. During the last few episodes of the original series what do you feel might have happened if Joe would have at least told the team about going to KC, and would the outcome have been any different... like Joe being shot etc... and further more, why didn't he let the team know in advance???

I think he didn't let the Team know in advance, because he thought they would stop him from going. He knew that if he told them, they'd go on their own and force him to stay behind. Of course, from what we know of canon, Joe's brain illness wasn't something Dr. Nambu would have cured, and so he would have died, rather than being discovered and saved by Dr. Raphael.

Hmm...that's an interesting premise. Let's say for a moment that Joe didn't keep his pain secret, and sought medical care from the ISO instead of trying to ignore it by running laps at the racetrack and getting attacked by Galactor (ep 103). It could then be on base where he discovers that he's screwed, and ends up being forced to stay behind while the rest goes mecha-hunting. Still- would he stand for that, just hanging out at the ISO waiting to die? I don't think so- he'd take off after the team, or make it a point to go with them in the first place. He'd not let the last few days of his life go to waste.

I agree that Joe would have done anything, and would have made it a point, to join the team if the others would have even thought to leave him behind! I am also sure that Ken, as the leader, would have totally understood him, and that he wouldn't have opposed to the Condor's last wish! As a soldier, and having the same objective, the Eagle knew for sure what such an important purpose might have meant to Joe, especially when it had been a case of a definitively terminal illness! We can also see this kind of understanding in the reversal of events at the end of the third series, when the Eagle had been the one going through a similar experience. The others had insisted to leave Ken behind only when there had been the possibility of a cure, but, when things had gotten worse, and when there had been no more hope, no one had held him from joining the team for their last mission. I'm also sure that, in Joe's case, even the others would have understood ... they all shared the same purpose, and, at the end, they were all in the same boat! But, then, as TJ has already said, mission completed, Joe would have died with the unavailability of a cure, and the circumstances wouldn't have made it possible for Dr. Raphael to discover and save him! That would have completely changed the plot, and it would have made it rather difficult for the possibility of Joe's dramatic return in the second series. Unless there could have been some kind of secret communication between Dr. Nambu and Dr. Raphael, or in the event of some kind of miracle, having a new, possible cure popping out, at the very end, out of the blue, with an "all's well that ends well" ending of the first series!! In the case of the second scenario, we would have been left without a cyborg Joe, though!!

Or, Joe might have been saved. It depends on the nature of the injury or medical condition. (We've covered the unlikelihood of shrapnel, at the very least, of any from the 'puppy episode.') It was his stubborn determination to go it alone that led him to Cross Karakoram. Without that, if Dr. Nambu had forced him into the hospital -- Oh, shit. On the other hand, the team might have found out about CK in other ways. In time to save the planet. Perhaps Joe could have been there, even if he was left on the ship because of his injuries. ('C'mon, Ken, one shot with a Bird Missile. Please?') (And we all know that, IRL, the scriptwriters were wrapping up the series. They had no idea that the higher-ups would order a sequel series -- and a sequel to that.)

It occurred to me last night, that if Joe hadn't gone to Cross Karokoram and been captured, he would never have thrown that shuriken at Katse that slipped into the Black Hole Device. The Device wouldn't have stopped, and the Earth would have been obliterated, Everyone's dead.

Or, as Jun feared, Ken would have climbed inside the machinery to disrupt it, and it's possible that he could have somehow jammed up the gears himself -maybe with his boomerang- but then probably would have gotten killed when the gears went flying everywhere and an explosion resulted. You make a good point about Ken at the end of Gatch F, gatchamarie, that he went on the mission to save the Earth in a desperate hour, even though he was basically dying from the hypershoot sickness -I guess it doesn't matter so much when the entire world is at risk of being destroyed! If you succeed, you die anyway, but if you fail, everyone dies. You might as well try... Not sure if the others would have accepted Joe's condition as terminal, despite what that doctor had told Dr. Nambu, as even Dr. Nambu himself wanted to check into it further and do more tests on Joe. But if Joe had told them about Karakoram Cross, and then later jumped out a window to run off on his own to join them there, I think they might have let him be with them on the team, especially once it became apparent how potentially dire the Black Hole Plan really was.

Originally posted by lborgia88 Or, as Jun feared, Ken would have climbed inside the machinery to disrupt it, and it's possible that he could have somehow jammed up the gears himself -maybe with his boomerang- but then probably would have gotten killed when the gears went flying everywhere and an explosion resulted.

I don't think that would have happened. If Joe was not there (either because he lay dying outside, or in an ISO facility, or on the God Phoenix, or whatever) then the scene where Jun convinced Ken not to climb into the machinery would have played out exactly the same. None of them knew about Joe's feather shuriken thrown into the device, even after it proved to be the cause of the machine's undoing. As to what would have happened if Joe had been there... perhaps *Joe* would have been the one to climb into the machinery, knowing that he was 'dead' anyway.

My thinking is along the lines of UW's. Joe's actions were based on the opinion of a single doctor who may or may not have the medical knowledge to accurately diagnose. We never knew the doctor's specialty after all. Who knows maybe Nambu could have cured him with the centrifuge again. But, yes, if that were to happen another method of discovering headquarters and stopping the doomsday machine would have to be devised. There's a fanfiction challenge for the fic writers among us.

Does the team ever find out that it was Joe's shuriken that destroys the machine? If everything exploded, no evidence would have been left behind. It must have been strange, to try everything to they could to destroy it, not suceed, and then have the whole thing blow up anyway.

AFAIK, they never find out. However, the viewer knows, and in this sense, understands the irony that at the end of Gatchaman II, it is Ken's weapon that saves the planet, preventing Joe's 'certain' death.

Originally posted by lborgia88 Not sure if the others would have accepted Joe's condition as terminal, despite what that doctor had told Dr. Nambu, as even Dr. Nambu himself wanted to check into it further and do more tests on Joe.

You're right, LB ... as long as there's life, there's hope, even when everything might only indicate towards the contrary. Even the very last minute counts! I'm sure Dr. Nambu, if he ever could have had the opportunity, would have done the impossible for Joe, as he then had to do for Ken, the Condor not being at all less important! The others would have also given him all the support they could have been able to give! The kind of unity the team shared has never shown us otherwise, all through the three series! But, as we also could see at the very end, in Ken's case, and as unfortunate reality could be, the unrepairable is, sometimes, also a very factual, existing truth ... Joe's destiny could well have been already written! At least, the scriptwriters were so kind to make us happy in the second series! There wouldn't have been a Science Ninja Team without our Joe!

[i]But, then, as TJ has already said, mission completed, Joe would have died with the unavailability of a cure, and the circumstances wouldn't have made it possible for Dr. Raphael to discover and save him! That would have completely changed the plot, and it would have made it rather difficult for the possibility of Joe's dramatic return in the second series. Unless there could have been some kind of secret communication between Dr. Nambu and Dr. Raphael, or in the event of some kind of miracle, having a new, possible cure popping out, at the very end, out of the blue, with an "all's well that ends well" ending of the first series!! In the case of the second scenario, we would have been left without a cyborg Joe, though!!

How did Raphael find Joe? Why was Nambu not surprised to see Joe walk out of the desert? I think Marie's idea of communications between Nambu and Raphael is more likely. Nambu knew he couldn't help Joe but suspected Raphael could and sent him to CK. They could have stayed in touch as Joe healed and Nambu could have told Raphael where he needed Joe to be when push came to shove.

There is always the destiny idea ... no matter how others tried to change things (or Joe did) ... whether Joe went in alone or he went in with one member, or with all of the members or even if he stayed outside of the base ... he was destined to be injured and to be found by Raphael and to be turned into a cyborg. I could see a story along those lines as well, Joe (or someone else) being thrown back in time trying to stop himself from being injured only to realize what ever he changed it always resulted in that end - or something worse.

Originally posted by Becky Rock Nambu knew he couldn't help Joe but suspected Raphael could and sent him to CK.

Nambu and Raphael had not contact 'before'. Raphael was being held prisoner by Galactor at the CK Headquarters, and escaped as a result of the earthquakes taking place as part of the Black Hole Plan. He found Joe as he was escaping, and took him with him. That's not to say, however, that Raphael and Nambu diidn't necessarily contact each other during the 2 years between the wars.

Originally posted by Transmute Jun Raphael was being held prisoner by Galactor at the CH Headquarters, and escaped as a result of the earthquakes taking place as part of the Black Hole Plan. He found Joe as he was escaping, and took him with him.

Ooh, I didn't know that -I'd generally assumed he'd escaped from Galactor some time well before the final events at Karakoram, but it makes sense that he was there and found Joe because he was escaping himself during the destruction from the Black Hole plan. Does Dr. Raphael tell Joe that in one of the Gatch II episodes?

Great input and interesting thoughts everyone

Originally posted by lborgia88 Ooh, I didn't know that -I'd generally assumed he'd escaped from Galactor some time well before the final events at Karakoram, but it makes sense that he was there and found Joe because he was escaping himself during the destruction from the Black Hole plan. Does Dr. Raphael tell Joe that in one of the Gatch II episodes?

I got the information from James. He sent me some bits from the planning notes for the Gatchaman II series. I dont' know if it's mentioned so much in any of the episodes.

What would we do without James!!!