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I agree with Amethyst. I've also been an admin/mod for people posting fic - my time was at the Harry Potter archive Fiction Alley. Remember - if you submit your fic to a moderated archive the moderaters aren't your enemies. They are there to ensure that your fic meets certain criteria. At the very least, these will involve good grammar and spelling. They are also there to ensure that the terms and conditions are adhered to, and these often invovle story ratings. I've had to reject more fics on the grounds of not having an accurate rating than anything else. It's a very fine line (and when I get home I'll find my guidelines on these and post them) - and I've actually had to re-write a chapter on a fic of my own because it tipped the edge from a Restricted to a NC-17. Most of the admin/mods have been writing for a good many years, and are always willing to give more explaination if you ask for it. Be warned, though, it may take them a few days (or a couple of weeks) to get back to you because they are often very busy looking through submissions. With Fiction Alley, at one point as both a movie and book came out, I was having to deal with between 10 - 15 submissions per day for my allocation. That's a lot of work, and it did mean that I had to tighten my checking when it came to readability. But it also meant that I wasn't able to give personal guidance that I liked to do. (You guessed - I hated rejecting fics!). One of the biggest things I've learned as a writer (both of fiction and non-fiction) is when to let it go. I have a whole file full of unfinished fics - some have only one or two pages, some are nearly finished. All of them just don't work. Either they don't feel right as I've been writing them, or they were contrived. Some, just weren't doing what I wanted and I couldn't come to a resolution. There are a couple of choices when you get like that. You can toss it out as a plot puppy (plot bunny, idea, whatever you call it) and see if somebody else can run with it. You can ask for a collaborator (which is what I did with "Beloved" and TJ came to the rescue). People have different ideas of what they want from a Beta. I love my betas. They give me not only that eye over spelling, grammar and syntax, but tell me when I've gone majorly off track or when it just is silly. I've even had a beta of mine suggest a scene be put in - and she was right about it. It was a scene that could be left out, but if I included it, it gave so much more richness to that particular chaper. One of my betas - Maevenly - is also wonderful when I give her a scream in anguish because dialogue isn't working. Betas will also help you to keep your timeline and characters in track.

Oh, Maddy, I don't envy you. At FA you had something to deal with that we avoided at SH: underage writers (though hunting them down and asking them to return when they grow up was fun). Fanfiction is a great way to get kids writing, but it when sites cater to both general population and mature audiences (okay, maybe I should just say smut writers, but this is more PC). However, as a writer of smut, I love the moderated archives because most are set up to prevent youngsters from getting to the smut we so enjoy. It's why I'll read at FF.net or AFF, but my work is seldom posted there. I don't write for kids (Love the irony there).

The hardest thing for ANY writer, fanfic or original, to do is to share the first work they believe is good enough to take public. My advice is to do what I did - I posted a drabble here, among people I had come to trust and respect. The feedback I received was constructive and encouraging - enough that I began to work on things that were intended to be posted in a public forum rather than just written for personal amusement. Be selective about your betas - they will be your first audience and you need to trust them with your babies. You need to trust them with your own confidence too! In other words, don't hand your fic to someone that comes across as a know it all or condescending towards others in public forums - pick someone who has a way of saying things that might be touchy but in such a way that it's feedback not just a dig at whomever it's directed at. That means they WILL tell you what isn't working, but instead of talking down to you they will work with you on how to fix it. If you're not sure who to ask for betaing, ask others you trust for their recommendations. I have a couple of very lovely ladies (and you know who you are!) I would recommend in a heart beat. Once your baby is out in the world, read the reviews carefully - especially the ones that hurt the most. Sit back, take a day or two and then re-read them. Are they a flame? Was the person making sense and you can see their point? Or was it based on what THEY would have done? If it was either the first or the third, ignore them with all due prejudice. The first need to get a life and the third is just someone who thinks everyone should do the same as they do. Writing is a very personal and individualistic occupation/hobby, someone who can't see that is not worth your time thinking about.

This is a wonderful thread. There have been some great ideas and information shared here so far. Like Maddy, I have a a lot of unfinished fics just sitting on the computer. Most probably won't get finished. Either I realized they weren't that good, they weren't something I would normally write or they were something that should have gone to someone else as a plot bunny. I think it was Green who said that posting that first fic is the hardest and I totally agree. The first fic I ever posted in this fandom was a total departure from anything I had written before and I was so blessed to be welcomed with such kind words by reviewers. It was a tremendous encouragement and I immediately felt welcome in the fandom. My biggest problem is that I have never used a beta reader. I know I should, but it's the con-crit that makes me nervous. I know they do it for the good of the story and to help you grow as an author, but it's still hard. I know I have people in this fandom who would be wonderful betas for me, and I may be contacting you. I learned just how important a good beta is with my first forays into smut. God, what a disaster. LOL. From now on, I'll be sending any smut I write to people I trust to look over before it's posted. I now view it as a great learning experience. However, three weeks ago, I did not feel that way. With time come perspective. My advice is to be patient with yourself. Don't expect to be the answer to the New York Times Best Sellers List on your first posting. Grow slowly and keep learning. They don't call it Practicing your craft for nothing. Above all else, have fun.

This is a great thread with lots of advice. Like I have read from the rest of you, once I got my first story written, I found myself someone I trusted and who's stories I admired and asked them to Beta for me. Since then I have found a number of people who I trust and have them read my work. What appears to be happening with me to get me to share my stories is I start with one person (my beta) and slowly introduce the story to a larger audience, when I have gained enough confidence THEN I feel ready to move to a much larger (the general public) audience. Considering I do not write nearly as fast as many of you, as is apparent in my non participation of IF's, (I just can't think of anything fast enough to even begin to participate) it takes me forever to complete a story to a point where I am ready to begin the process of sharing with my beta and then posting. *sigh* If only I was as wordy as Maddy, SJ and TJ and could throw out a post in a moments notice. It is not a skill I learned in school, I was taught I had to think and mull everything over (to death) before I was allowed to speak or say anything.

This is a very wonderful--and timely--thread, definitely, Amethyst! If I may pitch in my two cents here: I viividly remember the advise of one writing teacher that I had, which was this: Once something you've written is done, you have to be able to step back from it. It has to be able to stand alone; if you feel compelled to stand there and defend it, then it is something that you should either (a) share only with those you know and trust to give you the positive feedback you are looking for, or (b) you need to work on it until you feel that it can stand alone. Which, some times, can take a while. Some of the things I've posted here have taken me anywhere from a few hours to a few weeks before I post it. Writing those three stand-alone fics was hard; posting them even harder because I know how most feel about one of the main characters. But now I have no choice but to step back and let the work stand or fall on its own merits. As to criticism, I've always preferred people to give me solid constructive criticism rather just say it was good or bad, because it then gives me something to work with and consider why someone reacted the way they did to what I wrote. That is why, if someone asks to critique something that they've written, I will try to give them points that they can work with, and this is not always an easy task. I was in the publishing world as an assistant editor, so I know a little something from both sides. It's hard to reject, hard to receive the rejection, and hard to give and get criticism. I know exactly how you feel, Amethyst and Maddy, and it is not an easy job. The point of all this rambling is this -- the right support (like those here!) can make the process a whole lot better! And it is only with practice that writing can improve, especially if you really look at what's working and what isn't. The other thing is that if you want to try writing a different type of genre (for example, if you are comfortable with writing action scenes, but want to write romance, or vice versa), try it out and find out what suits your particular writing style. Rather than just say "I can't write that," you just have to figure out how to write within that genre that complements your particular writing style and, like fingerprints, no two writing styles are exactly the same, so what works for one person may not always work for someone else. Such are the challenges of writing! And then, there's alway the "edit" option, which is my personal favorite button!

Originally posted by clouddancer I was taught I had to think and mull everything over (to death) before I was allowed to speak or say anything.

LOL ... that's my same story!! I can still remember my parents telling me, "You're not old enough to share your opinion!", or my father telling me, "You must have gotten an 'A'!", when I obtained a B+ in any subject! I think that's why I always think a lot before saying, or writing, something, and am never satisfied with what I do, wanting it to be always better! And that's why I keep on mulling over what I might have said, or done, spontaneously!! Anyway ... this is a great thread! Thanks a lot for having started it, Amethyst! Everyone's advice is priceless and very constructive! The same happened to me ... I was afraid to death before submitting my first fic! I was mostly afraid because I knew that I couldn't compete with all the other authors, mostly due to the language drawback, and I also thought that I could have been labelled as someone with lots of airs when I only sincerely wanted to take part in the fun of this shared fandom! But, today, I do not have any regrets at all ... I would have had them if I had decided not to continue with what I had begun! Everyone's feedback was the kindest, and I was elated to have been able to share my imagination! I was even more happy to know that my work, together with other, shorter ones that followed, was approved by the moderators! It's always a good uplift of one's self esteem! Moreover, I'm always open to constuctive criticism as I know that that's the kind of thing you can have, mostly here ... one that helps you grow! Fortunately, my first beta was the best ever! To be honest, I also thought a lot before requesting help from a beta, being my first experience in this fandom, and all! Generally, when I write in Maltese or Italian, I'm confident enough, but this was another case! I wouldn't have managed to go on with my wishing to submit my fic if it wasn't for that someone, from whom I have learnt a lot! I now have the confidence to go on with shorter fics, alone, considering that my first one had been rather long! I also wish to take this opportunity to thank everyone here for all that I have learnt from each and every one of you and from all your constructive help! At the end, I join Garnet in saying that, above all, this is done especially for fun!

I"m not sure I have much more to add to what's already been posted here. Ah, the joys of being on Pacific time, when everyone else in the world (except Alaska and Hawaii) is up before you... I pretty much agree with everything that has been said here. It's important to take baby steps, find a good beta, and be prepared for criticism. The first fic I ever posted wasn't badly received... it wasn't received at all. People pretty much ignored it, and that was worse than people telling me it sucked (which I had been prepared for). I ended up posting a bit more anyway, and I still had no response. Despite that, I wrote a much longer story, and this time I used a beta. It turned out much better, and although there are parts of it that make me cringe now, I am still proud of what I accomplished back then. I get a lot of criticism about my work, but fortunately have never experienced the true flame (I hate your fic, it sucks, you lose!). Rather, I have been fortunate to have people explain *why* they don't like my stories, or point out areas for improvement. While this isn't the most fun thing to read, I try my best to take it in stride, and use these comments to improve my writing. I don't always agree with them, but these kinds of reviews are from people who really took time to read my work and leave their thoughts, and I have to appreciate them on that level. For my part, I try to do the same thing, especially when I beta. If I leave a review, I try to explain what I liked, and if something in a story bothers me, I try to contact the author and explain what it is. What I have found here at Gatchamania is that if we support a trusting environment, then others who need that environment to grow and bloom as writers will come here as well. Personally, I'm extremely proud of the way we do not have flames here, and how no one is touted as being the 'best' or the 'worst'. We're all writers, we're all writing about something near and dear to us, and we all enjoy the stories posted. And, uh... I guess I'm just not experienced in the ways of fanfic... what is 'gen fic'?

Marie, you are in a group of authors that I truly admire; those that write in a non-native language. It's hard enough to write in the language you have known since birth and studied all through school, but to write a story in a language not your own, and for an audience of mainly native speakers, is a challenge few would rise to. When I first started reading fanfic, I often got an attitude about people who spelled things "wrong" or used odd word choices or different sentence structure, but I quickly learned that many of these were writing in a second, or third, language. I quickly changed my tune and came to admire these people. They were doing something I never could. More power to them, and to you, for doing such a challenging thing.

Thanks, Garnet! I appreciate your comment ... a lot! The true thing is that I've been lucky to find a place where everybody shares the same fandom I do, and where noone treats anyone as an outsider, even in the existence of various differences! On the other hand, I'm also so grateful to be able to learn more from all the wonderful authors around who can do marvels when writing in their first language, and who kindly close an eye when reading something like mine!

I'm glad everyone is enjoy this. TJ -- gen fic isn't used very much in this fandom; I've seen it used mostly in the HP fandom where there is a lot of shipping going on. Gen fic is general fiction; it basically means anything that is not a shipper fic. Other fandoms may have other connotations on it, too. Now, I have another confession. I once took down a story because of a very harsh review that bordered on being a flame by someone who considered herself a BNF (Big Name Fan). After much persuasion by many others, I put the story back up with an author's not that added to the warnings and genre that I previously had. Ironically, at the time, my name was probably just as widely known as hers was, I just didn't through it around as much.

That's a tough one, Amethyst. It's an author's prerogative to take down a fic or alter it... but you shouldn't let *one* person's opinion tell you that your writing is bad or good. Yes, perhaps you had a flamer, but anyone who reads a post/review like that knows what it is, and the reviewer has to leave their name on it, and everyone just ends up knowing what an a$$ they are. If you honestly felt like you could improve things, then I'd support your taking it down. But for one person... it's difficult, but you can't let idiots like that prevent you from doing what you love.

I want to add something else. Having a beta reader is important, but that doesn't mean you have to accept every suggestion the beta gives you. Only you know where you ultimately want to take your characters and a difference of opinion in writing styles can come out as well. One of my book beta readers is an English major and she was constantly correcting the grammer of my characters' dialogue. I finally told her not to worry about the grammer in my dialogue - none of my characters speak perfect English.

I agree, Becky. Perfect grammar in dialogue isn't necessary. In fact, it tells part of the character if their grammar isn't perfect; and let's face it - whose is when we speak? Grammar in the rest of the writing is important though - however don't be obsessive about it. There is formal grammar useage and everyday grammar useage. You will probably want to use a mixutre of both. Some formal grammar useage is very clumsy sounding and some actually sounds incorrect. The idea is for your writing to be readable - and your betas will help that happen. Remember though - their suggestions are suggestions only and, as Becky said, you don't have to accept them. Just make sure tht you can justify why you don't. Don't get stuck in the "this is my story and nobody can change it" attitude that some writers have. This isn't limited only to amateur writers. Anne Rice, amongst others, is a professional writer who refuses to take suggestions from her editors and many people agree that her work has suffered for it. In non-fiction writing, the advice is always to be clear and concise. This is true for fiction writing as well. Try not to pad your work - choose your words carefully to enhance the atmosphere and build your word pictures.

Becky, Maddy, wonderful points about beta readers, thank you! I'd like to expand the idea of narrative grammar versus dialogue grammar: when writing in the first person, and author must write with the voice of the character. If the character uses correct grammar when speaking so does the narration; if the character speaks in slang or a dialect, then the narration should be written in this dialect. The trick as an author in this situation is to keep the voice while still keeping the story clear for the readers.

The first fic I ever wrote, I think I was motivated by two factors -a vague feeling of guilt that I was always looking online for new fics to read but wasn't giving anything back in return, and the fact that I'd (finally!) finished grad school and for the first time in more years than I could recall, didn't have a dissertation or a thesis or a term paper with a looming deadline hanging over my head and demanding "write me!" I'd never attempted to write fanfiction or fiction of any kind in my life, and I figured it could be fun to try. I also found it an interesting creative challenge -one that was all new to me (and still rather feels that way)- but mostly I did it because I thought it might be fun. And it was. I think it's important that fic writing be just that -fun- and not a source of stress and anxiety. I had all the stress and anxiety I will ever need from grad school profs, but it did give me a measure of perspective. For me, fic writing is for fun, not for killing myself trying to get an "A" from a professor or a committee. Now, that said, of course I hope to improve over time as a fic writer, getting better at converting nebulous visions in my head into words/phrases/stories that can convey them both as ideas and as feelings, and never post a fic without a that little nervous feeling of "This is utter schlock -why am I doing this?" Ultimately I'm doing it because it's fun -it's creating something and then showing it to other fic-reading/writng friends and going "Say, what do you think of this?" while knowing that your livelihood does not depend on it and that if someone does not like it, that's depressing but the world will not end. Joining Bird Scramble a year ago did bring back one grad school bugbear for me though -deadlines! There's not a thing I've ever written that I couldn't have improved if I'd fiddled with it for an extra week or month(s) but if the prof's going to start docking half a letter grade for every day a paper is late, then you get it done as best you can and hand it in on the due date. Part of me hates deadlines a lot, but part of me knows that if I waited until I thought something was just right before submitting it, I would probably never submit it. I imagine this is a common dilemma -deciding when it's time to say "It's done," and move on to something new. So, I guess my contribution here on "writing confidence" is to suggest that fic-writing is supposed to be fun (or else why would we be doing it?) as well as challenging and to try as much as possible not to feel anxious about how one's writing will be received -life already dishes out too much stress!

I think we all have little mini plot lines and scenes that play in our head after watching the show. It is so much fun to me to be able to write (or draw) them out and share them with people who can appreciate them! It was so scary the first time I posted a fic. I knew that once I pressed "enter" there was no turning back. I remember feeling actual butterflies as I posted for the first time. Thank goodness for a warm, supportive, encouraging fan base or I might have disappeared into lurker-ville once again! I agree with LB, writing fanfic should be fun, and it should be enjoyable for you. Write for yourself, and if someone else happens to enjoy what you've written, all the better!

One of my tricks with grammar usage, etc. is to read my fic out loud. If I can read it smoothly, if it flows when spoken, then I know it will also flow when being read. You want the reader to be able to skim through your story, not stumble over awkward phrasings. If you can't say it in a smooth fashion, then the reader will not be able to read it easily.

I do that too, TJ! It also helps to catch any words that might have been used (unintentionally) twice in the same sentence, or pick up on redundant phrases.

I'll add a third to that, TJ. Especially dialogue - I have to admit that I've read some shocking dialogue (and written some) that just doesn't read naturally.

Exactly! I'm glad someone understands my mania... Reading out loud also highlight my 'clunkier' word choices. Occasionally I also have rhyming sentences, and that's not very good either. I don't do poetry.

Originally posted by Transmute Jun Exactly! I'm glad someone understands my mania... Reading out loud also highlight my 'clunkier' word choices. Occasionally I also have rhyming sentences, and that's not very good either. I don't do poetry.

Now that would be interesting. Write a fanfiction in iambic pentameter. I'm actually considering doing a small series based on the five act model, but I can't do rhythm to save my life (or if I do, it is completely by accident).

If anyone else can do iambic pentameter, more power to them! Hey, maybe an iambic pentameter IF.... Ken flew his plane high over the base...

How about rhyming couplets? Ken flew his plane high over the base .... Joe drove the G2 in a race.

Originally posted by clouddancer How about rhyming couplets? Ken flew his plane high over the base .... Joe drove the G2 in a race.

Hee ... hee ... couldn't resist! Ken flew his plane high over the base .... Joe drove the G2 in a race. Jun was working back at the Snack J ... but, where were Ryu and Jinpei?!

I used to read lots and lots of stories, I spent the first few months in the fandom as a shadow just enjoying the efforts and imagination of others. This is the only fandom I've been attracted to when it comes to reading fic. I started writing to help improve on grammar, spelling using the right words for things and learn to type faster. The work enviroment I was in didn't demand the need for it from the time I left High school. I had sales budgets, and a team to manage and get the most out of them and build them up. These skills were more valued my employers daily than being good a typing. Not to say I don't have good english when I speak, I have a soft voice which makes me speak more clearly than others to be heard. (I get asked if I'm British at times rather than Aussie because of how I pronounce things!) I look at it this way... I bet Ken's grammar isn't fantastic either! LOL!!! I have always had a good imagination, and I'm arty. When i wrote stories in my High school years I always got top marks for it. (Most of my artwork hasn't been photographed.) When I started I didn't know what a beta was! I had no contacts in the fandom, I just posted a short story for the sake of trying. Lucky for me despite how bad my typing was I had patience and the right encouragement from TJ and Springie. Then I learned about beta's in fandoms! For this reason I'm always non-judging of anyone coming into the fandom no matter how bad the grammar or spelling etc is. They have to start somewhere and learn, and its great to watch a person grow. Since I started about 3 1/2yrs ago I have fixed the grammar in my earlier stories. (I still have loads to improve on.) I realized the other day I haven't done anything for almost a year! Two small children take most of my time now. I'm enjoying reading the thread and ideas and tips from all of you. Thanks!

I've said it somewhere, but the 'style' of writing should be invisible. Nothing breaks the suspension of disbelief like 'Look at me, I know all the writing tricks!' Although those writers at least know the tricks. Then there are those twits who think mispelling words and not using punctuation is somehow cool. (Over on ff dot net, in the Gatchaman fics, is a sinner named Manga Girl.) It's not. Again, working at figuring out the meaning interferes with the story. The only time the reader should work is if there's an intriguing clue (and readers like to try to solve the mystery before the author reveals the culprit). BTW, in 'Childhood, Interrupted', my description of Faulkner as readable if you have lots of uninterrupted time on your hands is actually my opinion of Faulkner. I've tried to read his work. Excerpts from James Joyce have made me afraid to go anywhere near his work. (If you do decide to suffer Manga Girl, don't give her advice. I said it looked as if she had an interesting premise, but I couldn't tell because her style was too hard to read. I suggested a few basics to make it more readable, and she actually tried to hide behind the excuses that she couldn't help it, that her friends wrote the same way, and that she was English, and there are differences between English and American writing. Oh, and she accused me of calling her story junk.)

UW, I couldn't find the writer you are talking about. I do respectfully disagree with you on your opinion of Faulkner and the idea of the reader having to work while reading. While the reader should not have to work to comprehend the simple meaning (ie, struggle to read the words on the page), an engaging story has depth and a reader should come away with something new each time they read it. A story that does not get the reader thinking is pure fluff. That being said, there is nothing wrong with fluff. Sometimes it is what the brain needs, it is light and entertaining, but not overwhelming. I do read the likes of Faulkner and Dickens for fun. But then again, I've been known to read cereal boxes just because they were sat down in front of me.

Originally posted by amethyst But then again, I've been known to read cereal boxes just because they were sat down in front of me.

*snort* Ooops, wet keyboard here now. I find myself doing the same thing, when I have no one else conversing with me, reading inane things I would not read just for the fact of wanting to READ something.

Originally posted by gatchamarie

Originally posted by clouddancer How about rhyming couplets? Ken flew his plane high over the base .... Joe drove the G2 in a race.

Hee ... hee ... couldn't resist! Ken flew his plane high over the base .... Joe drove the G2 in a race. Jun was working back at the Snack J ... but, where were Ryu and Jinpei?!

Good Job Marie ... I like it.

Originally posted by amethyst UW, I couldn't find the writer you are talking about. I do respectfully disagree with you on your opinion of Faulkner and the idea of the reader having to work while reading. While the reader should not have to work to comprehend the simple meaning (ie, struggle to read the words on the page), an engaging story has depth and a reader should come away with something new each time they read it. A story that does not get the reader thinking is pure fluff. That being said, there is nothing wrong with fluff. Sometimes it is what the brain needs, it is light and entertaining, but not overwhelming. I do read the likes of Faulkner and Dickens for fun. But then again, I've been known to read cereal boxes just because they were sat down in front of me.

I did not mean that readers should not be challenged. But no one should mistake bad writing for deep writing, or be afraid to say, "I don't get it." For example, I like Harlan Ellison's stories, but some of them are specific enough to the 1960s and 1970s that I don't get them (I was born in 1962, so I pretty much missed everything that was going on just because I was a child). OTOH, one of his more heartbreaking stories is 'The World of Robert Blake', and I can't recall which collection it's in. It's set in the 1950s or so, but I still 'got' it. I'd tell more, but even the clues will give away the ending. 'The Whimper of Whipped Dogs' will keep you up afterwards, even if you never heard of Kitty Genovese. I've read Dickens. He lays it on in Oliver Twist, but anyone expecting light-hearted stuff from him has not even seen a television or movie version of his work. Manga Girl was there at ff dot net, but you have to go for the 'M' rating to find her poorly-punctuated stories. (I'm at the library, and their WiFi setup won't let me go to ff dot net freely. If I remember, I'll check if she's there when I get home.)

I hear what you are saying about "I don't get it." I felt that way about Eliot's The Wasteland for the longest time. It struck me as a load of pretentious manure. I said as much in a faculty meeting once, and a senior teacher looked at me and "That's the whole point of the poem." As for Manga Girl, I'll go look again. I usually set my preferences at ff . net to All, but will try the specific M this time. Thanks!

Looks like Manga Girl took her ball and bat and went home. Or something. I didn't see her, either. But other TV show fanfics have some of that trendy misspelled and poorly punctuated nonsense. It really knocks a reader out of the story.

I usually find that people who use the lack of good grammar as artistic either never learned mechanics properly or are under the age of 25 and think that texting is an artistic medium. But I'll admit to being a bit biased on that point as having been an English teacher and an administrator on an archive.

I don't like texting mediums either being used outside of text message nor do I see it as "artistic" just painful. I'm a good reader, at one point I'd read a thick book within a week or two. I think lack of practice and people who work constantly in computing area's do tend to be more diligent and focused on corrections. Like anything I guess, the more you use it the more second nature it becomes! My husband has good grammar, not because he was good at English, just he's on the computer a lot typing. I use the computer more these days so my typing is faster than its ever been, and I make less mistakes I'm noticing... I know I'm different in my approach than I was 3yrs ago with it, I'm just forgiving to newbies if they have poor grammar at first knowing how hard it was for me and how condecending some people were at first or came across that way. (Not naming anyone, don't see the point indoing that, they don't post at Gatchamania.) I'm formally educated, just more in the other creative fields. I love that I can learn from all of you to write better!! I enjoy the one sentence at time threads because it shows just how much you can do...

What people who defend poor grammar (spelling, punctuation, composition, etc) as 'creative' don't realize is that all the great artists in every media first learned the rules. Then the ones who went on to break new ground wondered what would happen if they did this, or that, or the other thing. We only see the successful works, not the failures. (Then there was that trend in teaching where students' poor work was lauded as 'creative' in a mistaken belief that children need their egos stroked in order to succeed and feel good about themselves. Wonder how good they're feeling right now, when they can't fill out a job application, write a shopping list, or read simple instructions.) There's a very good reason to develop good grammar in one's birth language: foreigners. People learning a second language have the formal rules down, but they don't know the shortcuts, colloquialisms, and regional expressions and dialects of that language. It's much easier to read a memo in the 'proper' form of the language than one full of slang and regionalisms.

UW, I use your first example quite often when teaching grammar to high school students. They all loved to break the rules, it's no fun to break rules when you don't know you're breaking them, so learn the rules. It worked quite well with the urban-gansta population at the school. Of course introducing a few of them to Langston Hughes, helped too and telling them that in poetry they could bring rappers in as poets as long as the language was relatively appropriate and they could show the message beyond the words of some of the more controversial stuff. I also remember that misguided attempt at Whole Language. Fortunately, I missed it and by the time my children got to school they had corrected what was being done wrong. The best thing to do, when teaching grammar and spelling is to teach it in context, but if a paper comes riddled with errors, don't correct everything. Point out two or three major errors (or the ones most often repeated), once the student has those corrected, then move on to a few others. It's also helpful to balance this with positive critique as well. The hardest part about beta reading is having to point out all the errors that a writer makes. It can be shattering to anyone to see something come back riddled with red marks (I like to use softer, more fun colors with students), so I always point out things that I really like or things that I think the author has done really well when I beta read (just like I do with students). After all, these are things they should be doing more of, and they won't know it unless they know it. Grammar geek fact of the day: Do you know why we were always taught that it was wrong to end a sentence with a preposition? Remember the Roman occupation of Great Britain. That's right, it goes back that far and Latin being considered a superior language. It is impossible to end a sentence with a preposition in Latin. This just goes to prove that sometimes we need to evaluate where our rules come from and do we really want to spend time enforcing them?

I recall learning that when English was being standardized, people turned to Latin grammar for rules for English. Either way, it was the love affair with Latin as some sort of 'perfect' language that gave us that silly rule.

I was taught to spell in using the British system. At school if we spelled things any other way it was corrected. I guess thats why I stick to the English way of spelling and grammar its what I know. So my stories and some of the words will have a variation on American English because of it. (I can't tell you all the proper names in grammar world for every little thing, but I do have a good beta and I have learned lots from her...hugs TJ! Not once has she made me feel stupid while learning when I was rusty she's been very encouraging over the years. My husband used to proof read things for me, the problem with him was that he would just go and fix everything he felt was incorrect. You learn nothing from that, and miss repeat errors. I like it when people are willing to learn and improve. Reading a lot helps. I can see the importance of it thats for sure.

Ebony! And you have really improved so much over the years... I hope to see you writing again soon!

I hope so too TJ. I'm missing it at then moment but my kids are taking up my head space that I used for creative writing, plus the little business I started is taking off at the moment. Now I've been approached about catering for small group dinner parties since Saturday when I cooked for a group of women. I dressed up everything like a resturant in the dining room, with way better table displays. (I tend to plate the food that way when doing dinner parties.) I'm seriously thinking about it, it would be far better for me than working for someone else. I can always turn down work. I have to cost it out and work out different menus, things like if go ahead. Bit by bit. I'm working out how much I can take on without relying on daycare since I don't have alternatives to it. Its a balance that I'm sure you know all about the juggling!

It sounds like a wonderful opportunity, Ebony! I hope you are able to make it work! And I hear you on not having daycare alternatives. I love our new house and new town, but this place just isn't kind to working Moms... there are no afterschool care facilities that meet occasional needs, and very few afterschool activities.

Ebony, that sounds like it would be a lot of fun for you - if it can be managed. Good luck!

Ebony, my dad started the same way with his professional gardening business -and he's never regretted it. Good luck with whatever you decide?

Thanks everyone! I just won't take more bookings than I can handle. It might only start out as one a month or two. Plus the cakes and drawings its enough to keep busy. I log in here just for some time out!

I'm so happy for you, Ebony! I wish you the best of luck for your new enterprise! I totally know what you're going through at the moment! It's a good thing you're trying to make such an activity work! If you do your homework well, and do all your pre-planning, I'm sure you'll succeed in making this a fruitful job! When I first have had to quit my full-time job, because I couldn't take care of my two, small kids and work at the same time, and because I hadn't had so many childcare facilities to turn to, it had taken me quite some time to decide whether I could have been able to exploit my cake decorating hobby, and turn it into a stable job! I cannot tell you how much I have hesitated, at the beginning! But, I don't regret having tried at all! I'm able to work from home with the possibility of planning my own time around my job and my kids, with no one dictating me, except for the due dates of the pieces of work in question (you're not allowed any vacation leave or sick leave when orders fall during certain dates!). It does necessitate a lot of sacrifice, though ... I end up working during times when I'm already tired, because being a mum, and having to do all the house work, is already a full-time job in itself, as all of you, like me, might all well know! But, the ability of earning money, and being able to cater for, and cope with, all the family requirements at the same time, is very satisfying, and rewarding, at the end! So I wish you again the very best, Ebony! I know you can do it! And, don't worry ... as things will eventually settle down for you, you'll find you can manage time better, and, as well as you wish, finding it even easier to log in here more often! Times could become very irregular, but, at least, this is working for me!!

Best of luck Ebony in your new endeavours. I really hope you find fulfilment in your catering. Perhaps with your children growing they will become independent enough and you will be able to get to all the activities you love doing. Although, to me, catering sounds like a very time consuming job. But then I only cook meals that take 10-15 minutes to prepare and cook. I don't feel like standing around when I could be doing more enjoyable things.