Okay, for all the fanfiction readers out there (whether you have written or not), I need to know a reading preference. Do you prefer shorter chapters or longer chapters when reading? I have story that I'm working on that I think will be about the lenght of a long novella or maybe a short novel when done and would like to know a bit more about reader preferences as I'm setting it up. There will be obvious chapter breaks where this may not matter, but in areas where it doesn't what is the general preferance?

I don't actually have a preference for short or long chapters - as long as the break is at a point where it needs to be. I've written both - some chapters up to 10 pages, and others at 1 or 2, but the break needed to be where it was. There has been quite a bit of research done for on-line reading and apparently 600 words is what readers prefer on one page/chapter for articles. When writing fiction, howver, that's ridiculously short and I suspect that fic readers are tolerant to much longer "page" lengths than those who just read articles.

It depends on what you mean by short chapters. I hate chapters that are only 300 - 500 words. Especially when it is in a longer story. 2000 - 4000 words is better for me, but I have also read stories that have had 7000 - 10000 words in their chapters. I have found those ones a little long unless I have a good long time to sit down and read. I know I am a very slow reader.

I don't have a preferrence either. I like both long and short chapters. A short well-written chapter can be as nice as a longer one. Right now I'm trying to figure out whether to break my current fic--the sidebar story--into chapters or just post it as one loooong piece. I've got the same problem with another fic that I started before the IF kind of took over. It's probably in the 25,000 work area right now and it isn't finished, and I didn't think to put chapter breaks into it. Think I may want to do that.

I agree with Maddy -- so long as the break comes where it naturally makes sense, I don't mind whether it's a longer chapter or a shorter one. Also, chapter breaks can be used to highlight a particular mood or point, or for dramatic purposes, so it would also depend upon the needs of the story itself.

Originally posted by clouddancer It depends on what you mean by short chapters. I hate chapters that are only 300 - 500 words. Especially when it is in a longer story. 2000 - 4000 words is better for me, but I have also read stories that have had 7000 - 10000 words in their chapters. I have found those ones a little long unless I have a good long time to sit down and read. I know I am a very slow reader.

CD, I think you and I have similar tastes. Anything under 500 for a chaptered story doesn't make a lot of sense (the website I volunteered for would not even take them except for the epilogue). I've also read marathon chapters and thought, gee you couldn't have found a decent break point in there somewhere. Maddy, Garnet, thanks for the input, too. It's all appreciated. I know different fandom's have different preferences (just like websites).

I generally like chapters with anywhere from 1,000 to 4,000. Just don't forget download time. Over at Gatchfanfic, there are some people who have really long chapters (site chapter max is at 10,000 per, I believe) and they can take forever to download, esp. for those of us with dial-up. So medium-length chapters have my vote.

Originally posted by Garnet I don't have a preferrence either. I like both long and short chapters. A short well-written chapter can be as nice as a longer one. Right now I'm trying to figure out whether to break my current fic--the sidebar story--into chapters or just post it as one loooong piece. I've got the same problem with another fic that I started before the IF kind of took over. It's probably in the 25,000 work area right now and it isn't finished, and I didn't think to put chapter breaks into it. Think I may want to do that.

Garnet, if you are up thre with no breaks, keep writing it. When you are done with the writing and start the revisions that would be a good time to go through and look for good places for a break. I have a tendency to write in chapters (a la my outlines) when I write longer stories. Some chapters end up a little longer than others. I just noticed that the first two chapters I wrote ended up being in the 700-1000 word range and could easily be combined. I could also easily write the next part as chapter or add it to a larger piece. So that's what sprung my question. What I think I might do is when I get closer to finishing it and look for a beta (unless you want to take on that duty for it, too, Gar), I'll ask the beta for structure recommendations. RI, thanks, I appreciate all input. I jumped in feet first with my very first fanfic, which is still not finished, and have a learned a lot since then. Maybe, too much, if I'm asking questions about chapter length.

Originally posted by condorcandi I generally like chapters with anywhere from 1,000 to 4,000. Just don't forget download time. Over at Gatchfanfic, there are some people who have really long chapters (site chapter max is at 10,000 per, I believe) and they can take forever to download, esp. for those of us with dial-up. So medium-length chapters have my vote.

Thanks Candi! Gatchfanfic runs on efiction scripts. I've admined that for years in the HP fandom. So yeah, anything over 10,000 and the script wigs out and you cut off at weird points, anything less than 500 is just a waste of bandwidth. Psst, check with your cable or phone company. You might be able to get a deal on DSL or cable internet for not much more than dial-up these days. Some local providers can also offer good deals.

Thanks, Amethyst!

I'll let you know about the beta reader thing. As for breaking my stuff into chapter. I think when I get ready to post to Gatchfanfic I'll see where the good break points are. The last thing I posed there was over 15,000 words. I think that may have been a bit too long. I didn't realize it was that long till I posted it. I haven't found a word count thingy in TextEdit yet.

Average words per page in times roman 12 pt font (single spaced) is about 800, if that helps. No rush on the full beta thing. I'll let you know when I'm ready to have you do the character beta and if you want to do one or two chapters at a time (I can also send you my outline and previous chapters if you want, just so that you have an idea of what your reading and why something may have been done a particulary way).

Whatever works best for you.

Chapters break when the story moves from one thing into the next thing. It's sort of like asking if you ought to write long or short sentences - it depends on what's happening and whether its better to have short, choppy sentences to denote a sense of action, or if you should have long, flowy sentences to give a sense of pace and rhythm. Chapter breaks denote moving from one scene to the next scene. I'd be leery of anybody breaking a story into 1000 word "chapters". If you rather have a word count to go by, I'd probably suggest you go pick up a favorite novel, count the number of words on one page, and then count how many pages make up each of the chapters. Take the average and voila, you have a rule of thumb based on empirical evidence.

Which has to do with why my chapter length preference is so broad.

Originally posted by lyon Chapters break when the story moves from one thing into the next thing. It's sort of like asking if you ought to write long or short sentences - it depends on what's happening and whether its better to have short, choppy sentences to denote a sense of action, or if you should have long, flowy sentences to give a sense of pace and rhythm. Chapter breaks denote moving from one scene to the next scene. I'd be leery of anybody breaking a story into 1000 word "chapters". If you rather have a word count to go by, I'd probably suggest you go pick up a favorite novel, count the number of words on one page, and then count how many pages make up each of the chapters. Take the average and voila, you have a rule of thumb based on empirical evidence.

Thanks lyon! My problem was just the opposite though. The first few chapters seemed to be coming up short and if the trend continued, I wanted an idea on whether to combine them into one or two longer chapters then keep three or four shorter chapters. However, as a reader, I think I'd prefer two 4000-5000 word chapters than 1 8000-10000, when reading online. When reading in a book it doesn't stand out so much to me for some reason, but then I approach online reading with different strategies than I would physical text reading.

Actually, you are having the same problem as I am Amethyst. The latest story I am writing is over 43 500 words. I have been trying to decide if, and when, I post should it be the chapters/sections I have set up or should I post with several sections together ... even though those sections may be from a different POV. I have been interested in other people's thoughts.

Changing PoV can be tricky. Depending on how similar they are would depend on whether they go better together or seperate. If it is two different takes on the same event it would work well together with just a bit of a breaker (*~*~*~*) in between; however if the action changes, too, than it might call for a seperate chapter. The one thing I'd avoid, regardless of what you describe is disrupting the read of the story by doing something like this: [Change in PoV] If you've done your job right was an author, the readers should be able to note the change without you needing to break into the story to tell them. It's the same thing with ***FLASHBACK*** with just a few lines of setup the author should be able to bring the reader into the change in time and back without having to pull anyone into or out of the story to do it (unless the author wants to break that flow for some reason).

Originally posted by amethyst Changing PoV can be tricky. Depending on how similar they are would depend on whether they go better together or seperate. If it is two different takes on the same event it would work well together with just a bit of a breaker (*~*~*~*) in between; however if the action changes, too, than it might call for a seperate chapter. The one thing I'd avoid, regardless of what you describe is disrupting the read of the story by doing something like this: [Change in PoV] If you've done your job right was an author, the readers should be able to note the change without you needing to break into the story to tell them. It's the same thing with ***FLASHBACK*** with just a few lines of setup the author should be able to bring the reader into the change in time and back without having to pull anyone into or out of the story to do it (unless the author wants to break that flow for some reason).

I have not done that and I think I have changed POV without needing to break in to let the reader know. But it is a change from one characters POV in one location to another characters in another location (who is not aware of what is going on in the first location.) Which is why at the moment I have them as separate chapters. The change would make a very short chapter though, about 500-1000 word chapters which we were speaking about.

Yeah, I can see the delimma. I'd probably leave them if they are at least over 500 words; however it's also possible that your beta can come with other possibilities or even find ways to to expand the chapter. I just did that with one of mine, I skimmed back through it to decide if I was done and ended up adding almost 500 words to it. When I'm finished with the story, or at least that section of it and have it beta'd, then will see if the extra words add to the story or are just filler that don't need to be there. Damn, that just reminded me. I've got two chapters written so far and the main character hasn't had but a token appearance. Need to find a way to rectify that. May have to add a chapter in between to let readers know how he's coping.

I've never given this much thought...I don't think I have a preference either way as long as the break doesn't seem awkward. I'm also happy as long as I have a "next chapter" to go to! LOL

Sounds like an interesting problem you have. I don't think I will be adding more to the chapters considering the chapters were already added to give this characters thoughts during the event so the ending made sense when they get back together.

Originally posted by Springie I've never given this much thought...I don't think I have a preference either way as long as the break doesn't seem awkward. I'm also happy as long as I have a "next chapter" to go to! LOL

Springie ... you've spoken my mind! As did some others when saying that chapters change from one scene to the other, according to the story as it goes! When I write, I prefer to introduce chapters by topics or to separate something that is happening from another, giving different situations their importance. The chapters may also be interlinked ... one could be preparing the terrain for another. I feel that a long story, in itself, shows you by itself when and where you have to introduce a break. But then, everyone has his/her own style of writing ... it doesn't mean that there must be regulations regarding how much long a chapter might be! The most important thing is that what's written makes sense and that the reader is kept interested and does not get annoyed!

I generally finad as the story goes along. But I also keep the reader in mind too. 10,000 words is a long chapter for instance,(and some authors do make very very long chapters,) and I hate trying to find where I'm up to when I get interruptions. I figure in that amount of words a break can be found to begin a new chapter in a short story. I asked a published author about it once. (Her books are best sellers, and she's landed contracts with international publishing houses.) So thats why I listened intently to what she had to say. She said her chapters are normally aprox 4,000 words long. While she ends it on a mini cliffhanger she knows the readers attention span in a chapter only lasts so long and most people like to finish reading for the night at the end of the chapter. Her editor says the same thing and likes consistancy with the length of the chapters. I figure there has to be something in that and have taken the advice onboard for future stories.

The problem I find with "cliff hanger" endings at the end of a chapter is then the reader CAN NOT put down the book at the end of the chapter --- which I find almost as annoying especially if I am trying to get to sleep at night. I would much rather have the events of the chapter wrap up for the night so my mind is not dwelling on the possibilities all night and giving me a disturbed sleep. Yes I could break in the middle of the chapter, but I find it much easier to remember, "I am starting chapter 9, instead of I was on page 137." To each his own though.

does anyone else ever pick up a book and open it *immediately* to the page they were reading before? i find that really amusing... changing to a different POV in a different location tells me there ought to be a chapter break, right there. word count be damned, the story focus is shifting and that's what chapter breaks are meant to highlight. We're finished with X, now we're moving onto Y. and since i'm a big fan of empirical evidence, i did the exercise that i proposed in my first post and came up with what, to me, were startling results. if you'd asked me yesterday how many words to a chapter and how many words to a story, i'd've said something like 5000 and 200,000. and i'm actually fairly close! i picked up Inheritor by CJ Cherryh which is one of my favorite paperbacks. it's a standard size and fairly chunky, thicker than most, not as thick as some. there are 451 pages in the actual story, with approximately 365 words to a page. There are 28 chapters - this is how it breaks down: 164,615 words in the story. first 26 chapters range from 10 pages (3650 words) to 24 pages (8760 words) chapters 27 and 28 are 6 pages (2190) and 4 pages (1460) respectively. that makes the chapter average 15 pages or 5475 words. ta da. there. the math has been done. /bangs gong

Chapter breaks can depend on the needs of the story. Change of scene is one reason, or to denote that time has passed, or even to enhance the power of what has just happened. When it comes to POV, the advice I've read is not to change it too often in a given scene. This makes sense, as too many changes can become confusing. I try to stick with a single POV in a scene, unless there's no way for it to work otherwise. (There are some parts of Kidnap and Mala's Game where POV changes in mid-scene, but there was no other way to write those parts and keep the flow.) If you do have to change POV, make the new viewpoint character clear. Some writers advise varying chapter length and tone. This keeps readers from becoming bored. Some chapters might have to be short and punchy, while others might require greater length and a more leisurely pace. Since the fanfic pages require a mouse click to change chapters, too many short chapters interrupts the flow. Event (click) event (click) event (click) takes away from any buildup of suspense. (And why simple page-turning will never be beaten by mouse-clicking for quite some time. The ability to easily look back is one of the advantages a printed book has over an electronic one.)

Originally posted by UnpublishedWriter Since the fanfic pages require a mouse click to change chapters, too many short chapters interrupts the flow. Event (click) event (click) event (click) takes away from any buildup of suspense. (And why simple page-turning will never be beaten by mouse-clicking for quite some time. The ability to easily look back is one of the advantages a printed book has over an electronic one.)

UW, that sums up perfectly why I chose to ask this question. When I write, I write in scenes or segments that I naturally write as chapters, which I keep in seperate files for my own organizational reasons. When i noticed that several of them were coming up short and knowing that in the other fandom I write, overly long chapters seem to be the norm, and that in this one I've noticed a bit more acceptance of shorter chapters (and some that seem irritatingly short to me). Therefore, I thought to ask and see what readers prefer. Let me see if I've summed up what's been said accurately: 1. The flow of the story is more important than breaks 2. Change of PoV/scene/setting-time is a natural break and more important than the length 3. Conversally, if a chapter is a story in itself, there is likely a good breaking point that the author has missed that would not disrupt the flow and ease in readability 4. Overall length is less important than the actual, natural story telling I love coming into this section and talking about the mechanics and structure of writing. I think it makes us all better writers.

Originally posted by amethystI love coming into this section and talking about the mechanics and structure of writing. I think it makes us all better writers.

I love that as well. And let me mention another I picked up upon while reading UW's post. Maybe it would be considered part of your #2. Change of time denotes a chapter change. Thus the way I have my chapters divided up in my story is correct. I have written a chapter to denote a different event or two during a month or 6 weeks time. (Yes this story is spanning about 18 months of time.) So in my story, if my story changes to the next month and when I change to a different POV I should be opening a new chapter, or a click of the mouse.

Thanks CD! You are right about that time is an essential part of setting in many stories. I've edited my list to reflect that. The only time I might disagree is when a character is reflecting or daydreaming about something that has happened or might happen; usually such events are essential to a scene and would be more disruptive on their own than as a smaller part of a larger whole. Note that this might not be the case in a stream-of-conscious format or if the author is intentionally bouncing the timeline to give the reader a sense of the confusion the characters may be feeling.

I didn't mean for you to go back and change Amethyst. That comment was really for my own benefit. Although I guess others may look into this subject at some later stage. Thank you for starting this thread.

Thanks for helping to keep the conversation going. It's helped considerably for the basic set up of this current story and as a reader, I will likely be understanding of writers with shorter chapters (and maybe even the longer ones, too).

I don't mind keeping a conversation going. I would love to see more conversations about how to improve my writing as well as how to gain more confidence IN my writing. Well maybe not so much the second, I have been given a lot of advice from all of you on the second, I just have to find the confidence.

Reading fics online, I prefer fics with long chapters over ones that are chopped up into lots of smaller pieces -it feels smoother to me that way and it's easier to back up and re-read a bit if I want to, just by scrolling -rather like a physical book, where it's easy to flip back a few pages. This, and laziness, also makes me tend to post my own fics with as few chapters as possible (though this is tempered somewhat by my awareness that many prefer shorter chapters.)

Originally posted by clouddancer To each his own though.

It looks very much like that CD, we all have a different view on it thats for sure! I can't talk some of my chapters have ranged from 1000 words in one to the next being 4000 words! So I think most will end a chapter where it naturally ends. I don't find a story is interrupted by a chapter break, not if its flowing anyway. I like to start a new chapter over leaving one half way through because it was too long. (The word count she gave was more a guide rather than a law or rule.) We can analize it till the cows come home!

Anyone here read Katharine Kerr's Deverry series? She doesn't have chapters as such, esp. in the later books. She has book sections divided into segments of varying length. Some are only a couple paragraphs long, while others are several pages. The breaks are were they fit the flow of the story. Very interesting, and very useful.

IKWYM about the Deverry books, Candi. Sometimes t can get annoying though, when you're in the middle of a 50 page section and trying to get to sleep and just want to read to the end of the chapters... and it's tens of pages away! Great thread! Very interesting! Personally, my aim is to make chapters 5-10 pages long (when writing in MS Word in 12 point font) but sometimes I go longer or shorter. Again, the point of break is what's most important.