I'm loving all these threads about the technical aspects of writing! I thought I'd add another to discuss: As a writer, what do you think is the most important thing that you've learned? (apart from the mantra "Love your Beta") To me - it's getting dialogue right. A lot of my fics are pretty heavy on the dialogue, and over the years, I've learned that if you get the dialogue right, the rest of the story fits. I've read fics that have a great plot, but the dialogue was so stilted or out of character, that it spoiled it for me. My secret to good dialogue is to read it out aloud - preferably to somebody else or record it and play it back. I actually have somebody that I can e-mail the document to, and then we get on the phone, each with a copy of the fic, and "speak" the dialogue. That way we can get the perspective of different speakers. Failing that -yeah. Reading it aloud will soon pick up any awkwardness. OK - that's me. What about the rest of you??

I tell my students, when I'm teaching, as we get ready to write the first essay of the class that the most intimidating thing I've ever been faced with is a blank piece of paper or a blank Word document. After you get the first sentence on it, it's not longer blank, it's less intimidating and the everything after that is easier. That and that writing is a multi-step process. In the beginning you need to do each step, just like in Algebra show your work so that you can find your mistakes. However, as you gain experience, just like in Algebra, you can combine steps and do some of the work in your head. We can't expect to go from plot bunny to perfect story in one step.

For me, it was getting more descriptive...not just telling a little about a place or a character, but painting a picture in the reader's mind. Some of you here are absolutely amazing with picturesque descriptions! I still need help with that, as I tend to want to be a brief as possible when I write. Also, I'll have little details in my mind as a scene plays out, but I'll forget to describe it on paper...my wonderful betas have really helped me with that in the past!

Could it help if you imagined your writing like you do your drawing? WIth your pictures, you must have an image in your mind as it would, and you transfer that into a physical drawing. Perhaps if you envisaged writing like drawing - check each aspect of your writing against that mind picture and see if it's all there? It seems a little proasic, I know, but it might help.

Originally posted by Springie Also, I'll have little details in my mind as a scene plays out, but I'll forget to describe it on paper...my wonderful betas have really helped me with that in the past!

Springie, being an artist, what might help you with this is before you write the scene, sketch out the details that you thing are important so that not only are they pictured in your mind, but also in front of your eyes.

Storyboarding. Great idea for an artist. For me, it's still a learning process. I tend a bit towards wordiness at all the wrong moments. There's a time and a place for verbiage.

I'm still working on having a definite plan... I start with an idea and then try to make everything fit around it - and change my mind a million times on how it should end... Springie, I know how you feel. I want to just get in there and tend to forget that I'm not going to be the only audience. Both TJ and UW can attest to having to send stuff back with 'who the hell is this talking?' or 'what on earth are they doing now?' written across parts of it...

Green try using an outline, like the story they can be fluid (change as you find the story changing), but they can also keep you on track and give you a reference point if you find a new direction not working. I do this for any story that I know will be longer than a chapter or two.

Well, you guys have already hit on my most important thing, which is having an outline. I find it difficult to write a fic without knowing where it's going and what's happening. It keeps me consistent. The longer and more complicated the story, the more important a detailed outline is. Of course, IFing is writing a story with absolutely no outline at all, and no idea what the next person is going to come up with. That can be fun too, because I make up stuff and don't have to worry about how to resolve it: that's the next person's job! But for proper fics, outlines are essential for me.

Originally posted by Madilayn Could it help if you imagined your writing like you do your drawing? WIth your pictures, you must have an image in your mind as it would, and you transfer that into a physical drawing. Perhaps if you envisaged writing like drawing - check each aspect of your writing against that mind picture and see if it's all there? It seems a little proasic, I know, but it might help.

Amethyst and Maddy, you're absolutely right! But I think I may be better at drawing what I see than telling what I see... and that's why I just dropped fic writing and started drawing- it's SO much easier!

I think the most important thing I've learned as a writer is to not be scared to grow and learn from others. Don't be afraid to read a decent crit. Now for the timid writer this doesn't have to be one on your own personal fic, but indulge yourself in crits on other fics. By reading a few, you can usually find a decent pattern within that you can then take back to your own work to determine: Am I making those same mistakes? If you feel you are, then learn from those comments and apply them to your own writing. I don't have the luxury of a beta reader -- oh so sad -- but on the occasions I have had the pleasure of working with one I came to a pretty good conclusion that a good beta is the most valuable tool for a writer. Don't have them work for you ... have them work with you... I am stunned by the changes I can make with someone who isn't afraid to say "Wow, you really messed that bit up" and then work to repair it. Flowers was my most wonderful creation with a fantastic beta reader. It took me four hours to write it, but two weeks of back and forth to clean it up and ... wow ... what a difference it made. It's my proudest fic, actually ... I find, also, if you stall ... hand it across to someone to absolutely rip it apart, and chances are you'll find the problem and the solution, and writing energy will return in droves. That's some of what I've learned in the ten years I've been writing BotP ... or fanfiction in general. I still struggle quite horrifically with it, but am always ready to get that slap upside the head to tell me where I goofed it and need to fix it...

Originally posted by Springie Amethyst and Maddy, you're absolutely right! But I think I may be better at drawing what I see than telling what I see... and that's why I just dropped fic writing and started drawing- it's SO much easier!

I'm the exact opposite, I can describe in words give me an art medium and everything looks like a kindergartner did it. Um scratch that, I've seen kindergartners that can draw or paint better than I can.

Dialogue is something I've been working on more, I'm guilty of having it stilted and a bit wooden when I read it later on. I think I get hesitant to read out outloud for fear that my DH will over hear it and think...What in the world is she writing! LOL The other thing is descriptive details, I'm not really sure where my strenghts are to be honest. I tend to be a bit negative towards it.) I think thats why I've halted a lot in writing anything for months. Plus kids hate typing sounds and they're in the next room of a night time.) Its one of things when something is more self taught than being in a formal setting when learning a skill.

I've learned that while I don't really care for pronouns when I write, you sort of need them. Most of the time. But not always!

I've learned that I should stick the notes I scribble during boring meetings into a place where I can find them again later. I've learned that notes make for great mental storyboards. I've learned from Jane Lebak that I should trust the reader and not go all crazy with overblown exposition when one or two sentences will do. (I didn't learn that one until after the initial Bird Scramble version of Invader, so apologies for that one.) I've learned what my editor's favorite wine is, and I send her loads of the stuff whenever I find it on the shelf. Addendum: I had to cut the post short earlier because my kids were driving us bazonkers...which leads to the next thing I learned: I've learned that the best time to write is when the kids are in school, visiting friends, or at 0-dark-00 when they're fast asleep.

Originally posted by amethyst Green try using an outline, like the story they can be fluid (change as you find the story changing), but they can also keep you on track and give you a reference point if you find a new direction not working. I do this for any story that I know will be longer than a chapter or two.

Okay, see my avatar? Right, imagine her tilting her head back and gargling a snitty "Ahhhh!" and rolling her eyes... Yep. That's me *snicker*. I know I should use an outline because it would help me enormously! But damn, that would mean work... and actually knowing where the fic was going... *sigh* it's all too much... Hence, I write fluff. Plain and simple fluff. One day I might grow up and do something actually worthwhile... And I will probably try that whole outline thing... In the meantime I'll sit back and watch you professionals at work. And I'll try to convince myself not to be my own worst enemy when it comes to writing...

Green, a bit of fluff is good too at times, we all need a few fluffy stories around when you need a lift or something not to long to read... Thats been my problem. 2 long stories over 100,000 word stories in a short space of time! Plus the series that went with them...

Many points I have in mind have already been tackled by most of you but I'm going to list what's most important in my case. Like TJ, I've learnt that I cannot write a complete piece without an outline (I don't like to write something and leave it incomplete) ... I like to know where I'm heading to and then create a plot that helps me arrive at that certain point in the most interesting way that I can manage. Speaking of this fandom ... I'm learning to write in English! Tenses being a great part of what I need to learn more, I'm also learning how to keep a sentence short in English but, at the same time, being descriptive as can be. I'm used to write more with a language (Italian) that the longer the sentence, the better the outcome and description. It's a language which enables you to create even your own adjectives and with English it's not the same thing! In my case, still referring to the same subject of writing in a different language, I'm so trying to not translate common phrases or words, being descriptive or other, directly from one language to another ... some times when I literally write what I'm thinking in my mind in the languages I know most, I end up having a very different result on the paper! I'm also learning to accept critism and suggestions. Working with a beta is new for me but I can assure you that the first experience I had was a priceless one, being fortunate enough to have had an extraordinary first beta in my life! I'm also learning to write to others and not just to myself. I've learnt that writing can unite people! I've learnt that with writing I can be exactly who I really am, not afraid to write on paper what perhaps might be difficult to say with spoken words, and express myself more profoundly. Now I have to stop here ... I've loads to do and if I don't stop now I can continue forever!

Just another note ... Springie ... you are a great writer! Please don't underestimate yourself! Your writing reflects the artist in you ... the same artist who does wonderful art!

Awww... thanks, Gatchamarie! It's so sweet of you to say that!

I really mean it, Springie!

I mean it too, Springie! You have always been one of my favorite authors, from the time I started out in fic-writing! And someone said something about professionals... I might be wrong, but I don't think anyone here is actually a 'professional'. I don't believe any of us has published fiction professionally, although I guess Maddy is about to rectify that soon.

There's not a lot of difference between professional writers and us. The main one is that they have the guts or the ability to get their stuff published in a medium that pays.

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I've also met several published author's in the HP fandom. Many of them also write fanfiction.

There are a few in fandoms that end up published, which is promising for people who want to send in work and have it published. (Go Maddy! Its a stepping stone for you outside of being an editor.) I learned very early, after my first story what a beta reader is, I was hardly in the fandom at that point, just someone who read the stories and decided to have a go. So you can say I pretty much needed to learn a lot from scratch, and I have. Edit; One of the most important things I've learned of late is to slow down, or put the pen down if your not into it it will show in the writing. Have a break even if its weeks or months, then slowly it will come back and you'll be more enthusastic and it will show.

I don't use an extensive outline, but I have a general one. I have no problem with dialogue usually; its describing what the people are doing while they're talking. I can picture it in my head, but describing it gets tough. A beta is a necessity for me. I'm in the process of publishing my second book and I have 3 betas. They've saved my bacon a few times. I've also learned to stay true to myself. I've had agents suggest things that were so out of line with my story that I just had to say no, its not going there. Lost me the agent, but its still my story and not what they thought it should be.

Thanks - I'm working hard on my outline - and my wonderful Ste wants to help me as well. I've actually had non-fiction articles published that I've been paid for. Becky - you're right. As a writer, whether you're writing fiction or non-fiction, you have to stay true to yourself and what you want to say. There are a lot of "series" out there where an author has allowed themselves to be influenced by their agent or publisher to the detriment of the story (and you can always tell!)

And sometimes the fans themselves can do it to. *cough*crapilogue*cough*

You know ... I've tried the detailed outline thing, and it just doesn't work for me at all. I am the type of writer that just goes with the flow and let it form as I go (which is why I fail more often than get it right, I suppose) ... Sometimes I end up as surprised by twists and turns in the piece as the readers do. I honestly never know where I'm going to end up until it's done. Dialogue is the part that changes the path I'm usually on. I can have a complete and utter plan for the chat, and then as I cruise on, it will change completely -- which is annoying when I've had the whole scene in my head for a few days.. LOL How utterly thrilling to have a couple of published authors in this thread!! Becky, I didn't know you had a book out! That's bloody awesome! What is is called, and I'll go out and snag a copy of it!! :Sheepishly leans in to Amethyst to ask a really stupid question: Um .. what is a crapilogue? And why is the fan responsible for it??

Crapilogue is how some fans refer to the epilogue of book seven of the Harry Potter series. While some fans loved (usually younger fans), many fans thought it was fan service (I'm one of them). However, that does bring up another interesting writing technique. JK Rowling wrote the epilogue very early in her writing of the books, she used it to keep track of where she wanted to end up. She did revise it some, but the ending would have been stronger without to many.

ahhhhhh okay ... I gotcha!!

Some writers do well with detailed outlines, while others work best with a general direction for the story to go in. Whatever works for the author.

I can't go to detailed in outlines, just need to know where its going and how I want it to end. Usually my outlines are just a few sentences that give them theme of the story and outcomes. Without knowing hot it ends I have trouble with the direction it works like an anchor for me. You could look at outlines like an artist with a blank sheet of paper or canvas: Most artists will draw very light lines so ther get a glimpse of what the picture will look like, Its not until the artist(writer) begins to add the medium, be it paint, graphite, or digital photoshop that the drawing takes form, the deeper meaning revealed and the image thats in the mind of the artist takes life and shows its emotional side...sometimes it can take days...weeks, months, sometimes years for the picture to be done, but if it worth while and you passionate about it then the time will melt away and only death will prevent the artist..(writer) from finishing the project.

I use detailed outlines. In nearly every case, if I don't first envision the entire story, beginning to end, in a sort of inspirational "aha!" moment, it doesn't happen. After that comes the scene-by-scene outline, the nuts and bolts of figuring out how to structure the story. I've never begun a fic that I didn't already know the ending of, and pretty much how I was going to get there -with one exception. A couple years ago, I'd written "Guinevere" up to the point where Ken (missing and presumed dead for a couple months) returns and learns that Jun had turned to Joe in his absence. Then I stalled completely. I know now that my problem was that resolving the situation was going to make either Ken or Joe suffer, and I was then feeling too wussy to do that. Fortunately, I asked TJ to read it and got encouragement to make up my mind and to proceed one way or the other. What I learned: That one shouldn't try to go it alone if stuck or floundering -another person's perspective is invaluable and can jump-start your own creative juices. That it's okay to make characters that you like suffer. Not everyone gets a happy ending.

LB- I've done to my birdies a few times...not so good outcomes for em...I can always make it up to them in the next story I figure.

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You're right, LB, sometimes the Birdies have to suffer. And if you're writing Condor/Swan... someone's going to suffer. A threesome is a fun diversion, but not really a viable ending, so either Eagle or Condor will get left out in the cold. I've done it both ways, and I'll admit to some in me that I enjoyed watching then bleed out their hearts and writing it down... sorry everyone, but I gave equal opportunity on that one. I also agree about talking with others to jump-start a fic. It can give you some great ideas and have you off and running again.

I don't write any sort of outline at all, detailed or otherwise. normally my fics start with a visual image of some sort, maybe a few of them like daisies on a string or jewels on a necklace if you want to get a little more fancy. i start somewhere and try to connect the images together or simply try to find the path to the central visual. then again, looking back, I don't often write full on stories. a lot of the stuff I've put out are simply vignettes in time, self-contained, single-encapsulated ideas of "what-if".

Lyon that's a great writing style! I've got a friend in RL that is finishing up an MFA in poetry. I've tried to tell her many times to write some of her stories down and publish them, she's alway poo-pooed the idea because she's not a "story writer"; at lunch the other day I suggested she do vignette style, she could make the vignettes match her poetry or even disperse poems throughout the vignettes.

Poetry cannot be written if not spontaneously! Yes, you have to be sometimes accurate regarding matching verses, etc, if not writing poetry in free style, but the more one is in the mood, and lets his/her pen write liberally, the better the result! And when done properly, one can be able to include, in a short poem or vignette, the whole essence and a whirlwind of emotions that could be found in a long story. It all comes from the heart! Amethyst, if ever your friend decides to do something with her work, please let me know! Her style, as you've indicated, is one that I love!

well, poetry is WAY more based on a "feeling" or a "picture" than a story is. Stories are usually a connected series of logical events that starts at Point A and ends up at Point Z, usually illustrating some sort of point that the author is trying to get across to the reader: things like "love is a waste of time" or "friendship conquers all" or "it pays to be prepared". poetry is less moralistic and more invoking. as example! "no sky at all no earth at all, and still the snowflakes fall." can you visualise it? do you remember being a child with your face tilted up the snow and all you can see is white and all you can feel is cold? maybe you've got your tongue stuck out. it doesn't give you anything but the feeling of snow, it doesn't TELL you anything about the nature of snow in the slightest. that's what poetry does. so when i write, i'm usually starting from a poetic visual, a feeling, an emotion and i find myself writing words to invoke that feeling or emotion, leading to the visual that I want my reader to see. and in a story though, of course, i'm still trying to illustrate the underlying point which is usually "owww. love hurts."

SJ, both books are self-published. I tried for years to get an agent and after fighting with a few of them said screw it and did ut myself. The first one is called Daywalker and is the original idea for my Blood Line series. That's why I have the Blood Line notes over in Gatchfanfic to explain the two. It's a paranormal science fiction adventure that has vampires, werewolves and an alien invasion. Something different. The best place to get it is Amazon, but they've messed up the cover. The second is called Nightstalker and I'm still working on the cover. I'll let you know when its available.

Originally posted by gatchamarie Amethyst, if ever your friend decides to do something with her work, please let me know! Her style, as you've indicated, is one that I love!

I definitely will! I've volunteered to edit for her, I know her style, I know the stories. I won't let her compromise the feeling or the meaning to please a mass market that can't be pleased.

Originally posted by lyon i'm still trying to illustrate the underlying point which is usually "owww. love hurts."

Oh ... so, so true!!!!!!