I'd like to debate something: That Ken could kick Jun's butt any time, any place...any weather...heh. *wicked cackle*

I believe my Swannie would pirouette all over the Eagle's butt. The swan is a cunning little thing, she'd find all sorts of wicked ways of putting him off his game...Don't you worry about that!

This one o them battle of the sexes type things?

Ken would kick Jun's ass, no question - and it would only ever be a question in a totally non-canon, AU situation because Jun/Swan would NEVER fight Ken/Eagle.

Well I dunno, Lyon. Self-preservation and all that. If Ken attacked her, she'd certainly fight him....Of course that's AFTER she wibbled, sobbed, begged and pleaded for him to stop. And then... She'd call in Joey, her reinforcement, who would delight in the opportunity to kick a little Eagle butt! Call him the Pinch hitter...up to bat for the wee Swan. Seriously tho. IF they were to tussle...Ken has the physical strength, but Jun has the agility and the more strategic mind. It might just be an even match. now...as me...the little Black swan. WELL! He can make alllllll the speaches he wants. IF he takes on the red and black little Aussie - He'd go DOWN, baby! The words "White Shadow" wouldn't leave his mouth before I'd kick ass with a serious amount of napalm. That's Ken's problem. He has to make speaches before he strikes...Jun just does it! I REFUSE TO CONCEDE that a Swan could lose to an Eagle. No no no no no... *sticks fingers in ears and sings "Mary had a little duck" to drown out the sounds of other, more Pro-Eagle arguments* SJ

Originally posted by SJ Seriously tho. IF they were to tussle...Ken has the physical strength, but Jun has the agility and the more strategic mind.

* cough * Ken is Gatchaman. he leads the team for a reason, and if he doesn't have the most tactical mindset of all of them then they're in serious trouble. don't get me wrong, Jun's damn good at what she does but if we're talking a fight.... Ken has both physical strength and agility so Jun just doesn't have an edge that way. And of all of them, he's the one with the calculating, ruthless streak - if it needs to get done, it gets done. Jigokillers. Cross Karakoram. Ken can and will sacrifice a team member, a brother or sister in order to win the war, its part of who he was raised to be. the same can't really be said in reverse as the rest of the team is there to support Ken. He's the apex of their pyramid. A serious fight would only really happen in an AU situation, and considering similar (or possibly even identical) training there is no way Jun with her lighter mass could take Ken on. Guys are stronger and faster for a reason, and it has to do with a million years of evolution. She'll hold her own for a little, but yeah, she'll go down.

Originally posted by SJ ...Self-preservation and all that. If Ken attacked her, she'd certainly fight him....Of course that's AFTER she wibbled, sobbed, begged and pleaded for him to stop.

It depends on where the attack takes place, I'd say. If it's in Jun's room, IN HER BED, she'd "wibble, sob, beg and plead" for MORE. If it's not the case above, then I am with Lyon. Ken wins, no matter how hard Jun'd try. However, if Ken is drugged or brainwashed by Katse (that's one the few possible reasons I can think of why Ken'd attack Jun), then there might be a chance that our smart girl would be able to bring her commander down, since Ken wouldn't be totally himself in that cricumstance. Mei

Someone actually did a fic based on it or at least a cyborg Ken replacing the real one. For the most part I agree Ken would win. The only reason Jun would fight without the issues of fighting Ken is if she saw him hurt one of the others or try to kill one of them. Which for me made that fic believable. Jun is emotional when it comes to her family a weakness that Ken could and if fighting Jun seriously would exploit. As lyon said he is ruthless enough to do whatever it takes to get the job done. As much as I would love as a fellow swan to say Jun would win. Looking at their training, their backgrounds and their characters Ken would win in a one on one situation. However if we talk sneak attacks ie tampering with things to blow them up or cunning by way of technology then as an assassin in that respect Ken would definitely have his arse kicked.

i don't know, Firebird, but its kinda late to start another rant on the topic. lets just say am sure Ken would make a splendiferous assassin if he set his mind to it.

"A splendiferous assassin", Ken? Ummmm...I've never thought of that possibility, but surely he'd be up to that kind of job if necessary. Mei

I agree with Lyon's comments too. Afterall men are built to fight and women are not evolutionary wise, its not a sexist thing its just the way mother nature intended. However thats not to say that women can't kick mens asses if they decide to develop their bodies in that way (I mean look at the East German Olympic Team of 86 lol!) but Jun is slim and slender and any fighter will tell you that height, weight and body strength are the main traits that decide a the outcome.

I just meant if Jun got down and dirty using her technological knowledge of explosives rather than a one on one fight using physical skills she would no doubt win. Ken is very intelligent and tactically is better qualified but have you ever seen him reprogramme something or set an explosive to blow up. Those are Jun's specialities but as i said she would not have the heart to behave in that way. So plain and simple Ken would win.

Guys....This is cruel. I am ITCHING to do a fic on this now... As much as I say my darling Swannie *would* win. I actually did write a fic where she pretty much got her ass kicked by Ken. He took on Joe and Jun, and pretty much won....Until other team members showed up. Man....I can't even remember how that one played out - I must go back and read it.... So I grudgingly concede that my sweet girl would lose. Don't get me wrong - Ken would totally kick her ass. I have just been blinded by once playing alongside a Ken who was a bit of a pussy... But, as a die-hard Swannie, I am going to remain on the playing field, with my pink and white pom poms, cheering the girl on. *pets the head of the Black Swan who is growling and cursing in the corner* There, there, Swannie...Don't listen to those mean Eagle lovers.

Hmmm...if they fought hand-to-hand, yeah, Ken would win, no doubt. If she chunked a grenade at him, he would definitely lose. I don't know many people who win in hand-to-grenade fights. (Or missle launcher...from her motorcycle...I think he'd lose there, too.)

Originally posted by SJ ... I have just been blinded by once playing alongside a Ken who was a bit of a pussy...

bit of a pussy? BIT of a pussy?! the dude didn't have any vertebrae! had to ooze along, leaving little slime trails everywhere he went....

*giggles at Lyon* Your right Ken was way more than a bit of a pussy!

Yup. Ken would kick Jun's ass no problems. It's simple logic really. That's all I hafta say. Actually, in the past (aw, c'mon, you didn't *really* believe that was *all* I'd have to say, now did you?) I've been fascinated by the notion that Jun would make just as capable, if not brilliant tactical leader as Ken. I road-tested a smidgen of an idea in our old IF and I think she'd be darn good. Yes, Ken has proved that he is ruthless when it counts, but that's not to say that Jun is incapable of being ruthless, she was just never given the opportunity, what with being busy filling out her 'mother' role and all. I think if she was pushed and re-roled, she'd surprise us. Look at how much she rocked in the episode after Ken's father dies and Ken is bitching and moaning about it [bad Ken!] gets them into trouble as a result and she gives him THE dressing down of his life. Priceless stuff that. I'm tired now. Haven't had to use my brain for a while and it's taken all the stamina out of me...Zzzzzzzz

Jun can be `extreemely` ruthless, look at the ep `Bitter Bird missile` (ok, Joe put her up to it, but can you imagine Joe delibretly blowing up a lover??) Ken is bigger and stronger, in a simple fist fight the big man always licks the small, why do you think boxers are so carefully matched? But in martial arts its often speed and agility that wins, not to mention tactics. I think Jun could match if not best him on all of those points. Plus she can fight dirty if needs be (which ep was it she kicks TWO goons in the crotch at once??) I think it would be a pretty even match, they would fight each other to exhaustion (and its probable that women have more stamina) and then tearfully make up.

Thank you from all Swans for sticking up for us! Yeah!! We can be ruthless....we can be mean...we can be shifty....

Originally posted by lyon the dude didn't have any vertebrae! had to ooze along, leaving little slime trails everywhere he went....

Eeewwwww, Ken got slugged, eewwww What an image.... Kagaku Ninja-tai Gastropod. Slug Ken, Snail Joe, Cowrie Jun and Limpet Ryu. Can't think of any other kinds for Jinpei. I also think non-slug Ken would kick Jun's ass in hand to hand (foot to foot) combat. But then, she might play to lose that particular battle anyway.

Meridian, Whatever do you mean? *looks innocently* Swans always try our best. Right Swannie?

Um, errr, ahem, well.... *answers innocently* As the most tactful member of the team she would know that there are times when to win the war you have to lose the battle. Ahem.

ah so nothing to do with a erm particular fondness for certain team members then?

Jun would not stand much of a chance but if she hit some weak points that would knock the wind out of Ken, who knows.

Have you not ever heard the phrase "Hell Hath no Fury like a Woman Scorned"? This is One girl brought up amongst a team of boys. That upbringing alone would have taught her , her teammates weaknesses. As a woman, Im sure she knows when to exploit this knowledge, and that includes Ken. I love Jun for her dignity , femininity, and her grace. Im sure though she would know when and how to hit , (not forgetting that she would have been the original No. 2 had Joe's seiyou not been bitching about it). And lets not forget the Eagles weakness in sometimes succumbing to bouts of self doubt and broodiness. Couple that with his "squirmishness" in broaching feminine based subjects around Jun , and you could have a sufficiently distracted G1, to enable a couple of well placed blows by Jun. Who could forget the "Flowers" episode in Series 1? I reckon she would bring THAT up at the right time, buying her enough distracting power to beat him hands down!